[Ghraa]

I wanted to post here because i think there are some hurt feeling about the way we have been doing the trials. I will use last night as an example.

We had 3 groups of folks. We had the makings for 2 really good groups and send the others home or try to create 3 that were all slightly gimped in some way but at least all had an equal shot.

We decided two groups could do destruction and one group could do subversion.

DPS rules on destruction. You kill 20 mobs in 15 minutes and then kill a boss.

Group 1 (mine) was gimped with two knights and a chanter but had a ranger for DPS and a druid for nukage with a cleric filled out the last slot. (hardly optimal but with good tactics and teamwork we thought we could pull it off. Tribby was our trial newbie and we showed her what to do and gave her a feel for the trial and its pace)

Group 3 was giving a cleric, shaman, BST, Berzerker, Ranger and necro. (all veterans or semi-veterans of several MPG trials cept Katrazina who was their newbie).

We had enough folks to make another group but not enough DPS for Destruction so we made what we thought was a good group for subversion.

On Subversion DPS is not an issue, its tactics. There is only one mob that has to be killed (the boss) and there is no time limit on him. The only time limit is you have to loot chests for points and obtain 300 points in 10 minutes. Then the boss spawns and you kill em.

Group 2 was made up of Cleric, druid, druid, Bard, Ranger, SK. (Atheka was the one trial veteran that we knew of and had the components needed to open chests. We felt this group had a good chance of winning with the class makeup but being composed of nearly all trial newbies the overall odds were low).

I thought then and still do that this was the best way of giving everyone an EQUAL chance to win. Notice i didn't say great chance.....just equal. I don't like asking folks to sit out and we had a choice to include everyone or to make 2 killer groups and send the rest home.

After the raid a small group of us had a discussion and a few disagreements (a good one, i'm not complaining here and just want to continue the discusion) about the group makeups and how we could have done it better.

Soooo what i am asking is this: Those that have been attending would you rather we make a few really really good groups and leave some folks out or would you rather we continue the way we have been doing it?

Every night we have done trials so far we have had 1 group win and 2 that lose. I thought this was pretty good actually considering my own experience with the trials. Culdahl even told me he has failed 20+ trials and only got his first wins recently with striatus and these trials nights he is setting up.

However, I do see the other side of things. Instead of 1 win and 2 loses we could have made two really good groups that would have had better odds of winning but then would have had to tell 6 folks to try again for a group next time which is kind of a bummer.


I'm willing to do this either way. I just want to get an idea of how the majority feels about it.


The one other issue seems to be folks wanna all be in the Ghraa/Striatus group since we tend to win a fair portion of the time or to at least split us up so that we help other groups more. Well we win because we failed so many times that we now work really really good together. As you can see from groups 1's group makeup we were hardly the optimal group for Destruction. The shortage of DPS was made up by a whole lot of effort and a feel for each others tactics and capabilities. We tend to rotate in at least one or two newbies into our group every night to give them a feel for the trial and how its supposed to be done. I figure this will pay off in the long run even even if my group fails.

However, if anyone feels that its not fair to have a Ghraa/Striatus group then I am happy to be in any group. I don't see how me as a chanter would have improved anyones odds on a Destruction trial over a shammy or a bard but am always happy to do what I can.

I might have made a difference in the subversion trial group since I could pacify and open chests but then that would have left an already DPS gimped group 1 with no slower. If I switched out group 2's bard for me well.....thats a zero sum game. Trading one chest opener/pacifier for another.

Bear in mind that the overall goal here is to give folks a feel for the trials, learn the tactics, where to go for each trial, the pace of the event to get a feel for it, etc. Winning is nice. Very nice actually. However, I want to get EVERYONE doing trials and earning loot. When I plan stuff I think long term.

Anyway please post away with your thoughts and feelings. I'm looking for REAL info and constructive criticism. If you choose to add to the discussion please note just saying "you need to put the groups together better" isn't really gonna result in anything. Feel free to use last nights group makeups to illustrate your examples.

[Atheka]

Well this is a really hard thing to do, but I think nothing creates interest more than success. The more group we get winning trials the more people will want to take part. I think we should look at the people we have on hand for a given night and make the largest number of groups we can with the greatest chance of success. I know this means we have to turn people away at times, but in the long run I think it is better than sending forced groups out there if very limited chance of success.

I know these trials are hard and I know it is very common to fail them especially the first few times through one of the event. I personally have no issue with failing, I mean what does it really cost me 200pp and 7% exp that I don’t really need =) But not everyone takes it so well or get frustrated after failing a few. So what does this mean, it means that experience in them is a key element. As we have new people in winning groups the will gain experience increasing the pool we have to work with, which will allow us to create more groups in the future.

Last night when I saw we had 4 people new to the trial and the other two with limited experience it was going to be a hard run and most likely a failure. It ended up not even being a good learning experience because the group ended up dropping almost at the very start because on my third chest I accidentally triggered the trap the AoEed everyone (this was only my 2nd time doing this trial and only like the third time I used those stupid LDoN object spells).

We should also try to use the ahraid channel to communicate across groups after the raid breaks up this may have helped my group a little bit last night. This lets us take better advantage of the folks that have more experience with these trials. I know some folks got a little frustrated last night because they felt they were left in the dark.

Finally, I know we meet on Mon. and Tue. To do MPG trials at the moment, but we don’t really have to limit ourselves or force ourselves to do the trials if we don’t have the right make-up for the,. If we don’t have the right folks, nothing is stopping us from say taking off as a mini-raid of three groups and exploring some of the hard zones in DoD. I know folks could use some of the gear that drops and runes form the RSS type minis/named that I have seen up while running through the zones solo =)

Lets treat this as a good chance to have fun, trying new things and work as a team. Remember it’s all about having fun folks and it should be a little more casual than the regural scheduled AH raids. If we wanted to work, I’m sure we would all stay at the office later, so don’t get worked up about the little things in game.

Dave (aka Atheka)

PS: Thanks for helping to put these Mon. Tues events together. I really enjoy the chance to do these type of things.

[Auldaen]

I feel the best way to make up trial groups is to make as many Reallly great groups as we can, yes it will leave a couple people out, but I think that the remaining few that do get left out can make a decent XP group and hit MPG or RSS, or something along those lines. If we continue to Gimp groups to get everyone in a trial we are shooting ourselves in the foot. When a group fails a trial, we can always find issues the we could have done better, and may cause some hurt feelings or create animosity between the players, which no one really wants.

If we do start leaving people out of the trials, we will need to find a way to make sure no one is left out 2x/s in a row, but that should not be too hard. I really like the opportunity to do the trials, as pick up groups RARELY are good enough to complete them successfully. If i am not in a trial group, I have no problem going XPing and maybe get some runes or other drops (i know I would love to farm RSS 25s for a certain Bow that drops ).

The more we do the trials with more and more success we will probably get more attention from others that will want to come along too, giving us more talent to form great groups with.

just my 2cp's

-Auldaen

[Sulsil]

This process is a good one and I would like to see it work out. But sending groups which have a marginal chance at best of winning a trial is, in the long run, counterproductive. I honestly felt our group last night had very little chance to win our trial and told a couple folks that ahead of time.

Atheka's comments are very much on the mark. Success breed further success. Trib made an interesting comment in the after action discussion we had which was to the effect of "she fit right into that group easily because she played so much with Ghraa".

That sparked an interesting idea, How about constructing 3 groups of Four players who are stone cold killers, lots of trial exp, most elements needed to win most trials. Then each night 2 players who might not have played in trials are added to those "core" groups for that night.

Fact is trials are very much a test of teamwork, each trial I've won has been because all the group managed to grab an issue and tackle it quickly. Perhaps 3 groups of 4 'core" players which means each night 6 newer players get a Reasonable shot at winning a trial. Also as the core groups get the gear from those trials the newer players have a much better chance of looting useful gear.

Some nights most of a "core" group will be missing and the remaining players can elect to move forward or not. However less time will be wasted making groups and players will be either on the move, or released to do other things sooner.

Additionally some folks want to play or mesh better with other players, again this set up would generally promote that.

Sulsil

[Olidan]

I attended the trials the first night (last Monday) and decided not to go back, and my reasons are kind of directly related to this topic.

While I know that a semi-gimped group can win these trials, I feel like the far better option is to build a group for success. And by that I mean all level 70s (no exceptions) and balanced in such a way as to maximize the chances of success.

I don't think the format of tough, single group events lends itself real well to the approach of assembling a large group of AH'ers and trying to decide how best to divide them into groups. Of course this didn't occur to me until I experienced it first hand, but in hindsight it just seems like it might be easier to form very solid individual groups instead.

Lots of credit to Striatus though and the others for putting these things together - obviously there has been a reasonable success rate despite these obstacles which I have pointed out.
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[Ghraa]

People tend to be very passioniate when it comes to thier Epics and Trials. I think most folks are going to lean the way of making a few killer groups and win the trials and politely asking some folks to sit out. I'm not sure is this is actually the best way of doing things in the long term but I will speak with Striatus and maybe give it a try for a week or two.

The real key is getting experience with and get comfortable with whats going to happen during the trial. Less groups doing the trials means less folks gaining that experience.

However my main concern is making a "killer" group usually involves putting groups of veterans together. If we make "killer" groups every Monday and Tuesday nights then won't we simply be recycling the same folks every time?

My point is striatus and I can put together a killer group every single night thats going to have a good 75-80% chance of winning. But then how is that going to help us teach the ones that need the most help?

If we do put in one or two newbies in every group then aren't we doing the same thing we have been doing the last few weeks? After all thats part of what I (tactlessly) referred to as "gimping".

My goal is not to get 2 folks some gear monday and tuesday night with two really good groups. My goal is to get 20+ folks experience in the trials and eventually getting ALL the loot for ALL the folks as they start doing trials on thier own EVERY night.

Will making two killer groups mondays and tuesdays further this goal?

[Celephane]

I haven't done a ton of trials, but I've certainly lost way more than I've won. My very first Fear trial was over in less than 30 seconds. Winning is great, we all want to win, but getting the experience of doing these where the value lies. I think we should do the most with what we have. I think turning people away is possibly worse than just plain losing. I also see valid points for doing things the other way around. I guess what I'm mostly trying to say is this is EQ, we all die doing things all the time, but we should learn something from it. Everyone has to accept the chance of death and be ready to come back 2 hours later or the next day and do it again.

[Korinne]

I have heard what you are all saying and I want to kinda tie it in to something most of you know about or have experienced.

Do you remember doing Justice Trials? How about Tipt?

There was key group make up ...and then you could "shuttle" people through. It wasn't the easiest at first but when you know the "magic" group make up....it was cake. I think the trials are really very much the same.

Remember how the perfect group was a GOOD tank, ranger, druid, cleric, chanter, mage/shm for Tipt? And for Justice Trials, remember when knights were much more in demand and you had to have a cleric, DD, DD, Tank, Chanter, DD?

I appreciate the fact that Striatus put this together, but like many have pointed out....we hate to leave people out. The fact that it takes a good 30 mins to get to the trial area, gives me an idea Many of you have Mage bots....you could park them at the trial entrance and since you don't have to target to invite.... piece of cake to do different groups. Anyways..just an idea. I know I have a couple mage bots I can park if a group is willing to help them get there.

/hugs to you all and take care of each other!
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It takes talent to lose oneself. Now where was I?

Korinne Neverfound, Lost Druid of Norrath

[Auldaen]

[Kiliana]

I understand the topic here and I know you guys willmake a good decision. On my part though is the problem I have with most OOW zones and the MPG trials in particular. The graphic intensive OOW zones tend to leave me laggin very badly. So badly, in fact, the last MPG trial my former guild tried that I went on, it took me almost 10 minutes to loot one corpse. I tend to go linkdead on rezzes, also.

I am willing to try and help you guys if you need me but I would probably be a bigger liability than help.

[Zanman]

I like the way Stri and Ghraa are trying to get everyone involved and learn the ropes of these MPG trials. I also like the way the loots look, super sweet upgrades for most of us. I would like to always see the killer core group even if it is 5 main experienced players and one gimp as you call us newbies to the trials go in and win.

My way of seeing things is to always make the best one group with one gimp tag along then make the best second group you can and then whats left can do something else exp., get runes, etc in a mini raid.

But be really carefull on who is cycled in an out as the gimps Maybe even start the gimp list under what trials you want (loots) and try it that way.

Either way it is decided, "You can please some of the people all of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time." People will get there feelings hurt but I am not one of them. I would like to see everyone win and making two really good teams with a gimp here and there is the best option.

Having fun is what really counts and to all the MPG leader's that make this happen, my hats off to y'all because ultimately y'all make the final decision and alot of times thats no fun.

I always try to have fun and if I'm not, well time to log and take a few days off from the game (and y'all don't see me taking off to many days from the game)

Later,
Zanman

[Tytin]

Reading the varying styles put forth, I find myself agreeing with Kor and Zan.

I think the best way is to put together a group minus 1(or even two) that can do the trial with 75% chance of success. Then add in your gimp/newbie and take them through a trial run. The group may not win. If not, discuss it in group what went wrong, or what needs to be done better if they are to succeed.

For instance, I was in the group with Olidan Monday night. Yes, we failed. Why? Only one person, Ladile I believe, had done a trial before. It was adequately explained, I think, but still, 5 newbies to trials and one experienced person is not a recipe for success. Also, there is the matter of roles. Can a healer explain to a DPS an effective method? Not really(not dissing Ladile, or any other healer), because it's not their role. I have no doubt that Ladile could have painstakingly spelled out exactly what to do for a cleric. But a ranger? Or a berserker? Not hardly. And after it was over, did we find out what we had done wrong, or needed to do better? No. Was it a learning experience? No. Why? Because not enough of us knew what we were doing right or what we were doing wrong.

Ghraa talks about gimping groups as far as not enough DPS, or not the right classes for, say, Subversion trials. This is a problem, yes, but there is also gimping a group by not having enough experienced members. That, I'm afraid, is the main problem right now with Trial night.

My belief is that Striatus, Ghraa, and the rest of the core group needs to get more people intimately familiar with trials before trying to do massive trial nights.

[Auldaen]

I hear what you are saying, but I feel no one should be put in a position of having to teach everyone everything, Striatus got us a feel for trials, and some good tactics, but why should we rely on him and a few core people to hold our hands and get us intimately familiar with the trials? Why don't we, the less experienced, get together and try, and try and try some more until we are the ones intimately familiar with the trials, just as he did when he first started. Let us take some initiative and put together some trial groups on off nights, a good 3 hour session can include 2 trial attempts and 1.5 hours of XPing in MPG (with more chance of loot and runes). This is how Stiatus, Ghraa, Ladile, PT and his group (not sure of all your regulars) got to be the "uber trials group" that they are today, trial and error.

I am willing to join up for a nights worth of attempts at any time, and would love to get a regular core group to do such a thing, and then when we get good enough, we can cycle through the "newbie" of the day.

Just my take on things, lets not get to complacent and expect others to put the platter at our feet, let us go fill the platter and feast ourselves.

-Auldaen

[Olidan]

[Korinne]

My example was to bring to light that there are combinations that work better for different things....while other combos work...there is always the tried and true method that always works. I didn't intend to come across as one advocating making ghraa and striatus get everyone through the trials. I was simply trying to say .....equate your experiences and eventually you will have not one but two experienced groups...then more and more and more. Figure out what CAN win ....by trial and error and knowledge. I know that if anyone can take a group that looks "gimped" (since you guys are using that word) and make it work....its you guys! Group mix is ultimately important. Groups that can work together well ....also very important. As far as explaining to different classes.....a raid leader has to tell every class what to do ultimately ...but not micro manage. You all can do it....work together and it CAN be done. I actually went on a trial and didn't die...and that's a miracle. If I can survive...anyone can!
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It takes talent to lose oneself. Now where was I?

Korinne Neverfound, Lost Druid of Norrath