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No there is nothing in place for that at this time. We have one automated message when you are getting ready to lose your app status but that is it. We may, if aleax gets a break, try and institute this in the future but I think there was some sort of hang up as to why we could not. I am sick so my memory is kind of unclear at the moment.
Re: No warning email when you are about to lose all your tie
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:30 am
Sorcier
Officer
Joined: Mar 08, 2006
Posts: 894
There isn't anything in place right now. It just takes time to program that the three that can do it (me, Aleax and Tetra) don't have.
Like Acoma said there is a warning message when you are about to lose your app status. I believe some old app. approval emails said you had to raid at least once every 6 months when in fact it should have said 6 weeks. I finally found that code and changed it to read properly. If we don't see an app for 6 weeks they have a chance of being completely removed from the system. Currently the warning email gets sent at 6 weeks and I still give them another week to show or to at least contact one of us to let us know they are still interested in being a member. But that's just for apps and writing something for member warnings would be much more involved.
Rwekk wrote:
Seems like a bad way to get missing players back.
It's not meant to punish missing players. It's meant to encourage players from missing. The tier reset on win is also meant to encourage members to raid and raid often. If people raid their tiers come back fast with this system so a tier reset isn't really that bad anyway.
One of our biggest problems is spotty attendance though. Everyone can't raid all the time and we understand that which is why you can miss 40 raids before your tier gets reset. That's at least 3 weeks which is usually more than enough for vacations and such. It drives us (well me) crazy to see that 74 members have raided with us in the last week but we've only been averaging 40 on our raids. If we aren't raiding what brings people out to raid then give us some input but remember we need people to actually show when we raid something everyone wants.
You get a tier reset everytime you win something. So it's not like it's the end of the world. It also prohibits somebody from taking say a year off, coming back and winning an item the first night back in a zone he has never seen and had to be 85'd in. Then everyone else on the raid is wondering how that happened ! (I saw this once on a DKP guild raid, guy shows up after everyone else had worked for months to get flagged for the zone and outbids everyone for the loot because he has a huge amount saved up from previous years).
You could miss 2 weeks, raid 1 night, miss another 2 weeks, raid 1 night, and still have your tier. Asking players to raid at least once every 2-3 weeks is hardly a major burden. Ask the raid guilds how they would feel if you only show up 10% of the time.
If you raid, you will win stuff. People should all know by now a minimum attendence is required.
Well mine got reset, and rightlfully so by the rules.
I had no intention of using the points, but going from 25 to zero isn't as fast to recover points as some of you suggest.
That basically means I had enough to bid on an item w/ a chance to win, and now I don't.
Wish I had the time or energy to show up more for you folks.
A mixture of locked out raids, and being tired after my other raiding are my excuses.
Ok, well I just thought since apps and stuff get emails, that it would be nice and fair to members so email them a warning as they are about to have points reset.
I never felt like dkp had any use at all in AH, it all revolves around tiers. So resetting tiers to zero = a wipe IMO. This probably only effects a handful of folks, but the email would show AH cares about them, and informs them of whats needed to come back and keep the points. Everyone would be happy.
so yer saying someone like me (or Culdahl the only 2 tanks AH had for months getting AH flagged for Time way back in the day) having been gone 18 months wouldn't reset since it wasn't a "year" ?!?
Sending an email out about missed raids and an eventual tier reset is a good idea so don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's not. We do care so thanks Rwekk for bringing it to our attention and we (maybe just me lol) will put it on our list of things to do.
Mulling over someones PHP code just takes time is all. Take for example the app process which has been in since the beginning but just here recently does it send a warning email. The old system was just to dump after 6 weeks no questions asked with a "dear john" email that it's over lol. Unfortunately there is no "canned" Everquest Raiding website software out there so this site is basically all custom as far as that part goes. Many thanks go out to those that have made it the very useful and workable site it is today. Just like anything it will always be changing and we always welcome input on things we can do to make it better.
PS - Tiers get reset to 1 (not zero) and you can still bid on anything that you have the DKP to buy. Which reminds me DKP does have a use. If you don't have the DKP to purchase the item then you can't win the item.
Rwekk, sorry your tiers got reset. Franklaw was in the same position, had his reset recently. I'm sorry that happenned to both of you.
As for an auto email, we'd like that to happen, and apparently it will when we can. Tech service for this site is purely volunteer, and is based on when they have the time.
As for when it is reset, 41st missed raid it resets. That is 3 to 5 weeks of missed raiding. As we're a raiding org, and need folks to raid, that is more than long enough in my book. I don't know of any company that let's folks vacation over 3 weeks, and those military taking a 30 day leave, just need to let a SL/officer know, and we'll make an exception.
AH tries HARD to be fair to everyone. That said, the 40 day rule makes sense. We have to be fair to those that can attend daily, and those that have limited schedules.
That said, we have to reward those that DO attend.
Mine reset because I was out of town for a month. When you get laid off, you have lots of time do things. So, yes, people can take more than 2-3 weeks off at one time. It wasn't planned for me to stay away that long, it just happened that way. The night my tier got reset was the day I got back home from driving almost 22hrs straight(ie..non stop) from Ohio to Texas. Took so long because my tire blew out in Memphis TN. Let me tell you, the last thing I wanted to do was sit in front of a computer. Imo, a better number should be chosen, like 50 per say. It's such a more round number. If you're going to stick with 40 why not use 42?
Mine reset because I was out of town for a month. When you get laid off, you have lots of time do things. So, yes, people can take more than 2-3 weeks off at one time. It wasn't planned for me to stay away that long, it just happened that way. The night my tier got reset was the day I got back home from driving almost 22hrs straight(ie..non stop) from Ohio to Texas. Took so long because my tire blew out in Memphis TN. Let me tell you, the last thing I wanted to do was sit in front of a computer. Imo, a better number should be chosen, like 50 per say. It's such a more round number. If you're going to stick with 40 why not use 42?
It was origionally 20 missed raids I believe, that was ruff. Of course we also thought that the system would count days missed not raids. Once we found that out we switched it to 40 missed raids.
This system was set up so that it encourages toons to come to more raids and not just sit back and wait for the one they want, not that either of you do that. If you find yourself in a bind like getting deployed, computer crash, something legit that keeps you from being able to get on we can sometimes keep the situation from happening, but not always.
We want to be fair to all and we try to. This new system is so much better than the old and it took alot of time to figure it out. Thanks again to all that have come before me that have helped to make this happen. lets try to keep it on track and get the HELL OUT OF MMM!
And for you Uber raiders that have helped us in the past to get where we are but are now raiding full time and dont have the energy to do it anymore I wish you all the best and hope for any and all of to show when and if you ever can. Just remember that if you ever get tired of full time raiding and want to come back to us we will still be here, at least I hope so.
How difficult/ tricky/ time consuming would it be to do it manually?
I ask this not wanting to create more work for our Officers and Site Maintainers but thinking to volunteer myself for the job if its plausible.
Having recently been close to losing all my tiers due to having guests in town for 21 days (just over three weeks) and not even being aware of it had it not been for a kindly e-mail from a concerned party I highly see the value in more kindly e-mails going out in the future.
Would it be hard for there to be a "In Case Of Imminent Reset, please e-mail or text at randomexample@randomexample.com or 555 - 555- 5555" list somewhere?
I'm not sure how long it would take but logically it doesn't seem like it would be that hard for me to go through the attendance lists and accumulate a log of people who are at 35 raids missed or closer and jot them off a quick e-mail or text message on Thursday or Friday which are my days off.
(I get unlimited text messages with my plan which is why I am comfortable volunteering to do that if people prefer to be contacted in that method. I only check me e-mail once a day usually but my phone LIVES on my person)
Time is the problem. The three that are working on this website behind the secens with the code have to have the time to do it, find it and or change it.
An officer could just go to the DKP page and see who is close to lossing their tiers and then could send them a email but on that same note each player has to have some acountability for their stuffs. It takes 2 minutes to log on, hit the bookmarked AH page in the favorites folder, click the DKP page and scroll down to your name to see what your status is.
I am sure 95% of everyone that is a member of Ah gets on the internet to not play games at least once a week, probably more. We dont have have the man power as an organization to do some things because we all have other things to take care of. This is an aboove and beyond kind of set up seeing that we all have our own guilds, RL things and time constraints to deal with and then in our spare time take care of this. I dont know about the rest of you but my "spare" time is in short supply.
So time permiting and god willing we may be able to get to this. Spiritwind if you want to check the DKP page every day and send emails, PM or call the toons that are getting ready to lose thier tiers - by all means feel free to do so. I for one do not have a problem with that.
I'm not sure how long it would take but logically it doesn't seem like it would be that hard for me to go through the attendance lists and accumulate a log of people who are at 35 raids missed or closer and jot them off a quick e-mail or text message on Thursday or Friday which are my days off.
It would take just as long for said player to log in and join the raid once every 3 weeks. While I appreciate your offer to volunteer, I'm not sure that is the answer.
Everyone keeps asking for other people here to do work. Asking for people to write computer applications to send emails. Asking for people to manually go through and check things.
Asking other people to work for free so player_x doesn't have to bother logging in once in awhile. . . doesn't sit well with me.
Everyone wants to be fair, but I think asking people to show up more than once a month is fair. You want to win raid quality loot, you should be on raids with AH at least somewhat frequently. We want people to get loot from AH so they can help contribute more to AH, which means you are showing up to raid with us.
While Rwekk makes a good point, the reality is he lost a chance at (1) loot which in his case he doesn't need anyway.
Now, to preface, my opinion doesn't carry much weight anymore because I haven't been raiding (schedule changes and just began to get tired of raiding, and can't raid late often enough to make it worthwhile, my tier always resets). However I think I may have a good perspective in this matter because I can't raid frequently and joined AH instead of a raiding guild because I don't like being obligated to a certain level of committment.
So, my opinion is that we should've just got rid of the reset after some time period altogether, it should only reset on a win of an item. Aleax's idea to split tiers and DKP i think was great in that DKP is your money, and tiers is your place in line, and technically now if you leave for a while, you have to go back to the end of the line (we're not going to save your spot) seemed like a good idea to encourage people to raid with us more frequently.
Now maybe this does keep some people coming back week after week, but I think it probably makes more people feel like its just not worth it to be obligated to a minimum play time forever to maintain their spot in line. AH was founded on the ideal that we had no mandatory play time and once a member always a member. The once a member always a member is still in, though we went away from complete freedom on playtime to a minimum attendance per some random time period (due to raid/night rate randomness). When you look at the member roster why is it we have 148 members still showing on the roster as having raided in the last 3 months only 108 raiding in the last month and 51 in the last week. If you could grab some of those 3 monthers for raid encounters once a month wouldn't it help things out? Not to mention the other 350 some who haven't raided in the last 3 months.
Looking at the alternative, if we removed raid-attendance based tier reset it wouldn't really be that bad of a situation, and could encourage people who raid infrequently, or players who've stopped for a while for one reason or another, to continue to raid even infrequently. The only bad part of doing this would be that each player when coming back would have a shot at only one loot and then they'd reset and not be able to do it again, but so what, they put in their time, and in fact deferred to loot. If they always raid infrequently, it will always take them a long time to earn up enough tiers to win something.
IMO all of the old players, culdahl, shieara, korinne, or in fact anyone who build up a decent tier at some point in time should be able to come back and get that one measly loot. They did put in their time anyway and chose not to buy anything then. Even a tier of 30 means they put in a solid month. When you think of it in this case they actually provided the organization with more benefit when they were playing frequently by raiding and not looting than those that play AND loot. So how do we repay them for their playing and helping the organization and letting loot go to others? We erase their status and send them to the back of the line.
How do you think Vahlaura or odnz, or Reeaver would feel if they decided to take a break (1 month) and had their tiers reset? Vahl for instance is at tier 255 now, so she's raided for like 6 months without so much as a loot giving benefit to the organization day in and day out. When her tier would reset she'd probably be pissed in that she put in so much time and gave so much and we basically erase her hard work. Having to spend time to work back up, even if only a few weeks, may make going to a guild to earn loot privileges seem reasonably attractive.
I say don't reset things, give people the loot to show our appreciation for their previous work, but once that one kicks in they have to work back up just like everyone else. The issue before was that DKP was too high, so someone who put in huge amounts of work previously and left for a year or two, could come back and win loot after loot after loot, which is something nobody wants. No time based tier reset gives only one loot that is percieved to be (but not actually) unearned, which I think is a reasonable incentive to come back and continue, a reasonable risk of occurrence to bear by those that do raid continuously (most that would come back wouldn't do it just to grab one loot), and a good overall compromise.
On top of this, its super easy to implement, 5 minutes tops. Change the reset value to like a billion and voila, no missed raid qty based reset.
Last edited by Tetrafluor on Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
iirc, that was my original intent and I only conceded when everyone else wanted more leverage to get people to raid. Personally, I can see where Tetra is coming from and agree somewhat. Of course, if we remove the reset, I would bet money that someone would complain if/when player X comes back after a 4month absence only to loot uber item Y and disappear again for another 4 months. (which is probably why the reset came about in the first place, to insure that items that will help AH the most stay within the core raiding group.)
Yes, I can see that pissing people off, but if they raised themselves to a high enough tier when they were raiding, why shouldn't they get that loot even if it is 4 months later. The only thing I can see is that they put in work on earlier content rather than later content so they get a better item than they would've if they looted before they left.
From a financial perspective, if I worked for an organization for some period of time and didn't cash my paycheck, the organization gets benefit because they received work and didn't have to make payment so the organization is essentially better off. If I then decide a year later that I'm going to cash my paycheck I'm only bringing things back into balance. In this case however the organization is even better off because they gained the interest on my pay and I received dollars that were valued less than when I earned them due to inflation.
From the perspective of AH, by me not cashing in my tiers until later, I may be gaining a better item (i.e. my pay is not devalued due to inflation), but the organization still gains "interest" during my absence because other people are getting the loot I would've received and using it during my absence to make the organization better.
I was vehement about doing a tier reset, after seeing the old timers in AH win the Fabled gear in spring of 08, then leave the game, a few months later...
For those that weren't around back then, common joke among apps/new members was which oldtimer won the loot that night. I'm serious, it was beyond biased. Month later, they left, and AH almost died...
That is something I'll never forget, even if they helped start AH. Their actions almost killed AH. Talk about outright greed...
Pisses me off to this day
That said, Tetra, I really appreciate you keeping this site going.. Thank you
Old timers reading this, if you knew you were gonna quit, you shouldn't have looted. Period.
Tetra, thank you for the bottom of my heart for keeping this site going. My post is NOT directed at you.
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