[Elrico]

Hello Shieara,

I for one really liked having the week plan laid out ahead of time. The arrangement I have with my wife is to be able to log in early (yes, 8pm pst is early for me) on two nights per week. If I know what targets are planned for various nights, it makes it easier for me to decide which nights to come. If a flagging mob that I need is planned or some event that I know needs a high attendance is planned, then I can make arrangements ahead of time to be there. If you go back to not announcing which targets are planned for any given night, then it will make it much more difficult for me to make sure to be there for mobs that I need or for which I may be needed.

If the change is due to the fact that nights other than PoTime raids are notoriously low attendance, then perhaps others beside myself are in the same situation where they don't want to/can't raid every night and are choosing which nights to attend. The attraction for Time raids is the multitudes of loot and the abundance of mobs for DKP. If you wan't to attract more people to raid on other nights, or just reward those who do, then perhaps you can increase the DKP allotted per mob, or just implement a bonus for attendance. I personally think this approach would be unfair to the more casual raiders, but if your objective is to even out the attendance spikes, then this is the first method that came to mind.

Cheers,

Rich

[Olidan]

I prefer the way we used to do it, myself. For the first years of AH we NEVER knew what a target would be on a particular night. Mainly because the PoP flag targets were contested and it was important to keep our intentions close to the vest. But I noticed as a side benefit to that how folks were not able to pick and choose which nights they showed up on and which nights they took off based on what targets we would be after.

And I don't think folks should be able to do that. AH has helped many many folks get their Epics done, for example. And those raids are just as important imo as are Time raids or raids for glowing runes like we did on Sunday night.

AH needs their folks every night. No skin off our backs to wait for Ikk 4 or Uqua or whatever until we have the numbers for it. Although we always did tend to announce things like RZtW ahead of time when we needed full support.

Anyway - we will see how it goes - see how folks like it or don't - all opinions are welcome and appreciated.
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[Culdahl]

[Gwendeline]

see, regardless... im gonna have to cut my raid back to fri and sat night only. just started a new job, and 11pm est, is too late for me during the week, or on sunday nights, for me to raid.. im working in construction.. with 10+ hour workdays. granted i only log on starting now, for 3 or 4 raids per week (1-2 of which is for guild). as culd said, not all are in PST.. im in EST for example. so regardless of targets chosen, i shall see ya'll FRI/Sat.

[Karrmma]

Unfortunatly the long and short of it for me now is...I have to pick and choose which nights to log in. New job changed my free time. I was only really logging in for Time raids because I knew ya all needed all the flagged peeps you could get.

New plan gets a thumbs down from me... sorry

[Taeweyen]

Agree with Gwendoline...as I work, Fridays and Saturdays are usually the best nights for me to join with or without knowing the target(s).

[Shieara]

I think Olidan and Culd pretty much covered it.

Fri/Sat are traditionally our biggest attendance nights, for obvious reasons. No real surprises there. Lets just see how it works.

And 8 pst is late for me. Often it means I do not sleep that night, or that I get less then four hours. This is why I am cranky all the time

[Klaanu]

I also am an east coaster and it is very hard for me to make most raids since I am working till midnight. I usually do ask when I get home and logged in if I can catch up but often times an early end has happened or I get no response. I apologize for not being able to make start times but I do hope that I find a new job that the hours are more compatible.

Nin

[Sulsil]

I do understand completely having to negotiate with family needs, self needs and just plain avaliabilty. That said, there is a practical side to this approach. Oftentimes we announce a particular target and we fail to get the number or type of players needed and regardless of our announced target we are off doing what we are discussing here.


AH does not require anyone to raid, not do we promise to raid any particular targets. We do in general terms have a plan of where we are going and how to get there, but diversity is also very important to us.

The idea is show up at 8 Pacific, join the raid and hopefully you will enjoy yourself most nights.

Sulsil

[Prettything]

i have one complaint / question that has not been addressed.. i have a rl friend that i am trying to get into ah.. right now he is well below requirements and he doesnt want to apply intil he is closer to qualifying but i would like to have him join us as a guest when we are available and he is welcome. what nights if any will guest be allowed with a format like we have for this week.. will they have to sit and wait to see what targets are desided before they are allowed to join? or will they be welcome certain nights reguardless of targets? or are most nights open to guests these days?? also just as a side note.. he is 69 now and altho he has some aa he mostly doesnt have the ones we require i think.. any recomendation on when he should apply? i was thinking when we was 70 and had at least half the required aa.. he would have joined before requirements went up.. he was kinda close to having those i think.. but his computer completely died and he just got the money to buy a new one... any advice would be apreciated thanks
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And you can't fight the tears that ain't coming
Or the moment of truth in your lies
When everything feels like the movies
Yeah you bleed just to know you're alive

[Culdahl]

[Korinne]

PT - here is an answer to the question to the best of my knowledge.

Guests are allowed to most raids unless they are flag restricted or there are other constraints. Guests are allowed on a case by case basis but normally we don't say "no guests" except in the case of Time. Guests that are below 70 will usually be denied unless a needed class, simply because they are more of a liability than assistance. I would venture to say Ikky also would be a no guest situation since we tend to max the raids for those. As far as would your guest be approved, it would depend on target and class TBH.

I would have him hit 70 and then apply. I am not going to be approving any app's below 70 unless they are a monk, bard or wizard and even then I probably wouldn't.
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It takes talent to lose oneself. Now where was I?

Korinne Neverfound, Lost Druid of Norrath

[Elrico]

Hello Sulsil, Oli, et all,

I do understand the idea behind not announcing raid targets until the actual time of the raid. That was very important during the times that PoP targets were hotly contested and raids were often butting heads trying to get to the targets. However, with the advent of instanced raids in Time, DoN, DoDH and others, this is not so important. Granted there are targets which are non instanced and should be taken down as targets of opportunity and can't really be planned. I also understand that their is what would appear to be opportunistic raiding. I was there last Wednesday for our false start in Phase 1 before we realized that we could not proceed to phase 2. I saw at least 10 people drop out of the raid at that time while the rest of us proceeded to Matriarch Shyra.

Not all of us can raid Every night. Our time is a commodity that we would like to use to as efficiently as possible. Without being able to plan, it will be a hit and miss to make sure we are there for what we need. I wouldn't care so much if I missed a raid for flagging mobs that I needed if recent history had not shown that if you miss a mob once, you may not get another chance at it. In my case, I missed an ad hoc SRT raid that was called. I was not looking for a raid that night because Korinne had specifically stated no raids for the next night. Because I missed that SRT raid (and no subsequent SRT raids have been called), I was in piggy status for Fennin Ro. I missed one FR raid because I got their at my usual 8pm and all the piggy spots were already taken. I missed a 2nd FR run because I got there at 8pm and the Raid was OTM because another guild was already there and ready to engage.

So now having missed a random SRT raid, and then missing two FR raids, I found myself in a piggy status for PoTime and AH leadership were adamant that no more Elemental Gods would be killed. Further Time flagging would be done only in Phase 3. I was not alone in this situation as we have all seen plenty of people who "just" needed Coirnav, or Xegony, or FR, or TRC to complete their real time keys but had to deal with the whole piggy process to eventually get their quintessence and ghetto Time flag. AFter several weeks and a fair amount of dissapointed people who had to sit in Tranq for those several weeks hoping to be able to enter and loot their essences, we are finlly at the point where almost all of us are flagged. Hallelujah !

My point with this whole narration is that the effect of missing one random raid can have cascading effects on subsequent raids. If the AH leadership wants to go back to not announcing Raid targets in advance, then I would hope that they would change their thoughts on repeating flagging/progression targets for those who do not/can not raid every night.

If the underlying problem is that we have low turnout on raid nights other than Time, then perhaps there are other methods we could use to address that. I have already mentioned a DKP bonus. We could also consider (Heaven's forbid!) reducing the number of raid nights. Time raids typically run long and people are tired. They may not want to raid 4 nights that week. Perhaps if we do Time two nights and then Epics on a third night and allow folks to rest up or just exp hunt on the other nights, we may actually see an increase of attendance for the Epic night. Although, the trend that I am seeing is that the number of raid nights is actually increasing. We use to Raid Wed-Sat, but I have been seeing a fair number of raids being planned for Sunday nights now also. This is all fine and dandy for those who have all the time in the world and can raid every night, but don't be surprised if you don't get full attendance at all 5 raid nights from everyone in AH.

I am not trying to argue this one way or the other. I think that the leadership has to determine exactly what is the problem they are trying to resolve and then come up with the best approach to resolve it. I am just expressing my opinion that simply blacking out raid targets until the raid is formed is not the best overall approach (without also modifying other policies). However, that is just my opinion....

And that's all I have to say about that...

Rich

[Olidan]

[Sulsil]

LOL Elrico, btw I still don't have SRT and not for lack of showing up. Seems I have a mini still missing and only one SRT raid where we failed. So I understand.

Sulsil

[Striatus]

To Whom it may concern MEMEMEME and everyone else
Ok Before we used to pick the targets just before OTM reason being
If we announced the target the word alway got out and mobs were taken out day or 2 before we got there Simple. T%here was no other reason.
But now there are Time instance and most guilds not going after Ikkz Etc Etc so why not anounce those days. I work as do many here have 3 kids and OMG yes a family life beyond EQ but i love the People and the fun in playing.Also only have 2 days on early or KOS WIFE//KIDS// and even dog.But I agre if were going after loot targets ,Dont say anything .Well as per most time i may have saud to much but its what i think Good Hunting to all and to all See you soon

[Krisstoff]

I can see the logic behind both sides of the argument in this case, as during the school year I attend most raids, but during the summer I am unable to do so. Many people cannot raid each night of the week due to family/RL, but we also can't have people avoiding epic nights (I've been guilty of this lately) just so they can raid Time instead. The concept of not announcing targets is, for the most part, a good idea. However, I WOULD suggest announcing the nights that we will be doing flagging raids (i.e. Ikkinz4, Uqua, and subsequent GoD progression). This way, those who can't be as flexible can attempt to make room in their schedule in advance. Although with a 54 person limit I suppose we'll have to do many GoD raids multiple times anyway, so maybe I have a mute point
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[Shieara]

I don't think flagging is an important issue here. In fact, other then PoTime which I think we pretty much are done on with respect to keys, the only flagging mobs you will need to worry about are in Ikk4/Uqua. If we do those raids they would fall under the category of "need more then normal" so would be announced. Even if they weren't, we need to have enough people keyed and keying is so limited in them we will have to repeat them multiple times. You really can't compare it to Time keying at all. I anticipate having to do Ikk4 at least eight to ten times.

Loot mobs right now are what is contested. Someone leaked Ritesmasher Verok out, which is why we haven't killed him in awhile. No biggie, just makes it take longer for us to get our level 70 spells for people. Right now though we are in contention for him and several other mobs.

I just want to say that I understand wanting to pick the best nights for you. Nothing is more frusterating then realizing that you missed a vital keying mob, or a mob that dropped a piece of loot you were looking for. However, the attitude that it is "all about you" is (in my personal opinion) selfish and detrimental to Afterhours as a whole. There are plenty of targets I do that have no personal benefit to me other then just the dkp. I do them because even though they cannot benefit me, they benefit other members. By gearing up other members we increase the amount of content we can do, and make what we currently are doing easier.

At any rate, summer is normally a low membership time. People have things to do. Kids are out of school and need watching. There are sports, family reunions, and all that stuff. If things go as normal it will start to pick back up again in the fall. I don't see any reason to reduce raid nights unless we cannot find significant targets to do with the numbers we get. If it gets to that point we might switch to raiding Fri-Sun which I think are probably the best nights for people.

[Kelset]

The nights I can raid are set by real life so whether you announce or don't announce doesn't affect me one way or another. As a general comment though I think sweetening the pot on DKP for Epics and perhaps time1 would help attendance. You could also lower the DKP received for the later time phases.

As to the frequency of time raids, I personally wouldn't decrease them. At the stage AH is at there are no other zones that offer that many upgrades for so many people. This is especially true since it is instanced and has pretty much reached "farm" status in regards to difficulty. Also having "Time" geared people is considered a prerequisite to do some of the next tier content. This dynamic will change in the fall with the level increases coming but for now its the best thing going.

[Kalakob]

really if you miss a piece of loot it doesnt matter more dkp for you when the better version drops later if we move on from that target.