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So let me stop you there. IF anyone really needed the 2hander, they had a chance to bid on it using dkp. It didn't have to go to a roll at all! Somebody puts in before it goes bonus, they get it, end of story. I can't feel bad for some class who didn't win because they didn't want to spend dkp/tier.
I actually agree there. My personal ethics on it are that I won't bid on an item that I know another class would benefit from more than me, until it drops from 5 dkp to 3 dkp. That said, everyone has a different set of personal rules, and this is such a hot debate because people get offended when their rules are different to others'. In otherwords there is no Right answer to this debate, we just have to find the best compromise, and we need to empathize with the opinions of everyone else.
If a loot upgrades you should you bid on it regardless of who else it would benefit? Do you let the item go from 5 to 3 dkp? Do you let it go all the way to bonus? Do you wait until you've passed on it 5 times and then bid? Do you plan which next loot upgrades you the most and wait and bid for that One item, even if someone else benefits from it more? There really are a hundred different ways of looking at it, and all of them appear fair and reasoned until you look at each alternative and realize the true breadth of all the points of view. The strictest requirement when promoting AHers is that they're good people, which is why we have so few arguments within AH and such a tight family attitude. I encourage everyone to avoid pointing a finger and calling people selfish for claiming a loot, or crazy for passing on one they'd clearly benefit from. Because you're all good people, just with different philosophies.
One of my favorite quotes is that a good compromise is a deal in which all parties leave equally Dissatisfied. While we can dream that that will not be the case, some % will always be against any decision. _________________ http://www.spamhelp.org/harvesterkiller/
Now I have certain focus that are more important to me. They are found on arms, head, legs, shouldar, mask.
But does that mean I never get to upgrade any of the other slots??
If I put in for a new neck item, guess what, it's going to have a heal focus! Every neck item I could wear has a heal focus on it!
Most every ring has Increase Range/Beneficial or Decrease Mana Cost/Beneficial. Does that mean I pass on all rings?
I've passed on a lot things, but I can't expect to continually pass on everything that might help somebody else and never upgrade the other slots I have. _________________
Its not that you are expected to never upgrade slots and items, its that you should do it in a timely manner. Or do you not believe foci will trickle down? You can't play the game as if its the one and only time an item is ever going to drop. Myself, once it drops below 5 its fair game within reason.
Having said that, not allowing healers to get first crack at that heal foci, rogues to get that dagger etc is just I suppose pure self interest. Now it was also mentioned about people having a chance to bid on an item before it goes to bonus, and right there is exactly my biggest problem. If you are saving for x item, you dont want to blow your chance at it, do you? Yet by bidding on another item you are depriving yourself of your chance at said item. So yes, even at bonus you should be intelligent and rational in your decisions to bid, not ooh toy. Toy is if nobody rolls, and its going to rot then yes take it. I will be adding more later btw, just raid start atm so kinda hurried.
Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 1688 Location: San Jose California
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:14 pm Post subject:
Quote:
once it drops below 5 its fair game within reason.
Hmm... Maybe we should use this method on all raids... 5dkp open to specific classes only... once it drops to 3dkp or less... open to all.
That would alleviate the rogues not getting the dagger complaints as well as address the issue of cheapskates trying to get what they truly need for as little as possible. i.e. 1dkp or bonus.. _________________
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: loot system
OK here my 2 copper. If you want an item save up for it. Class specific items are gettin way outta hand
1-shield to tanks FINE
2-healing foc to healer FINE
thats where it needs to end. The first 2 are imperative on raids i understand that the rest are not . After that save your tiers like the rest of us. here an example Ohunk spend alot of tiers on head slot( gratz btw is nice ) if the next day we hit queen and dagger dropped wood i need to pass to him because of BS 9 . i think not. NOW , ON the other hand if he was saving his tiers like the rest of us( and didnt loot head slot previous day) and was within 5 tiers of person who won the dagger, i say pass to him. IT SHOWS A WILLINGNESS to save tiers for an item ya want.
btw all melee items it seems on targets we hit that are bst usable have BS, that mean i should pass on all rolls till rogs are satisfied?
one more fast point. i spent my tiers on deepscar painmasher. I KNOW no one else wanted it, i didnt want it to go to a random roll, where i might miss getting it, so i spent my tiers on it. if you want an item use tiers, thats why ya have em. just grind back like the rest of us
LAST POINT if an item goes to random roll, THAT MEANS YA REALLY DIDNT WANT IT TO BEGIN WITH so stop crying
im aware this post all over the place, i have 2 kids in my lap, and they wont shut up
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: you kidding?
elg i just read your post, if im reading it right r u insane?.
soo save up for xxx item, in the meantime in another item drops that ya want you shold be entitled to it becasue of class, regardless?
example agaiin ill use ohunk ( i like him) im T40 hes T40 we both saving up for item, mine a dagger , his new shoes, dagger drops with backstabb 13, he also wants dagger, under this scenerio id pass to him.
If night before he gets high top nikes spents his 40 tiers, then also wants dagger, your idea is he should also get dagger aswell? becasue hes a rog and it entitled to Backstabb? plz clarify
Having said that, not allowing healers to get first crack at that heal foci, rogues to get that dagger etc is just I suppose pure self interest. Now it was also mentioned about people having a chance to bid on an item before it goes to bonus, and right there is exactly my biggest problem. If you are saving for x item, you dont want to blow your chance at it, do you? Yet by bidding on another item you are depriving yourself of your chance at said item.
So, you give all daggers to rogues now and any other class that could use it should take a hike? And then the rogue still gets to save dkp on arms and outbid other classes because the dagger doesn't cost them anything now?
It still boils down to you think we should go Club Fu rules and award pieces of loot by class and best possible use, and whatever other reason we come up with, and disregard the whole system we use.
So far the only suggestion I like is from Aleax, where certain classes can bid first at 5 dkp, and then it opens up to everyone at 3 dkp. But it will still cost you points and a tier reset either way. And if it goes to bonus roll, don't complain if you lost out on something you obviously didn't care enough about to bid on.
Maybe you should wait till your done babysitting so the kids won't be bothering you so much, Ven.
I realize that Elgluth's posts are not written as clear as say a Harvard educated lawyer would. (If that gibberish could be called clear.) But I'm pretty sure that he means what Aleax is suggesting. Not that the classes get it for free, but that they are given first pick to use their tiers for it.
I don't think Elg is trying to keep loot or show favoritism towards certain people. I'm pretty sure he just wants us to maximize our effectivness so we can get onto the harder raids, so that our friends from the top guilds might be able to get an upgrade before their tiers get too outrageously high.
First I never ever said free loots btw, don't know where you got that idea from, merely prioritizing loots to the classes it suits best. I have done the Fu thing and I felt it was horribly flawed, as you can ask any ex member of Fu with their jokes about cybering pouty for the best rewards. I have done the RoV dkp and power thing, which is also horribly flawed.
But I'm not going to sit back and say eh whatever while we lose people to pure disgust over the system as it stands. For a while now, a long while I have remained silent about AH and its loot policy, merely commenting when a particularily horrible loot was taken. Hell I can name you every time I critizised somebody for loot, and people would always agree with me in tells.
Anyway, onto the specifics for Kreav. Bile Etched Ritual Dagger ratio = 2.578, Rottrueds Enforcer = 2.643 Lord Tephys's Warhammer = 2.653 and Studded Engineers workgrips = 2.763 and those are all from encounters we are either actively working on or will be working on soon. The next dagger up from those is the Tower Champions Fork in kurns @ 2.678.
Currently Odnz has the steamfactory dagger (2.291) and Rwekk has the gimp group dagger without aug (2.065). So I shall show you a specific parse, with you using the Queen Malarian dagger (2.578) vs those.
I haven't said anything so far, because I have mixed feelings about any loot system (except loot council which I'm strongly against... you can say that leadership will be fair, but everyone has their own bias, plus it makes loot decisions a long and tedious process)
I like the systems in place now, for both the hard raids and the regular tier based raids. I'm not sure I would change either of them. However, I think if people were to consider whether an item would be more beneficial to the group as a whole in someone else's hands rather than their own, that it would go a long way to making us all stronger.
One thing people might consider doing is putting an exception on their loot requests, if they want an item but are unsure if someone is putting in that is better suited for an item. For instance, lets say Malarian Queen drops:
It's a nice necklace for any of the classes that can use it, but the 70% heal focus makes it best for healers (yes, as a mage the heal focus would benefit me also, but mainly when I'm soloing... I don't even memorize pet heals during raids, so it wouldn't help AH). If I wanted the item, I could say "I would like to put in for Knotted Plague Strand Choker with Tier xx, unless a priest is in for the item, in which case I would like to pass to them"
I just think it would help everyone if people took a second to think about people besides themselves. _________________
Ok, here's the thing. I knew I needed to upgrade my weapons from the time I joined AH back in May 9th. With my RL schedule only allowing me to raid 2 nights a week. It took me 13.5 weeks to build up enough DKP to win a decent weapon. I knew what my goal was and I knew it was going to take a while to get there. Was it worth it? Hell yes it was. Should I have passed to another class just because it has a mod that benefits them? I do not believe so. Both classes have benefits from the weapon.
Now, you say that there are other options for weapons that are better for Bsts that I should take into account before bidding on a dagger. Ok, lets look at those:
Hydraulic Hammer of Smashing (2.61) - (We weren't even in MMM at the time we were killing Queen/Rott, this is was a far off target)
Rottrued's Enforcer (2.62) - (We have killed Rottrued 15 times and still hasn't dropped one of these)
Lord Tephys' Warhammer (2.64) - (We aren't close to beating Kith event yet)
Froststrike (2.74) - (Again, not even close to beating Kith)
Studded Engineer's Workgrips (2.74) - (Not even attempted the event yet)
*************************************************************
Ok, keep in mind that any raids we were capable of doing at the time I won the dagger was substantially lower in ratio. Granted, if a Rottrued Enforcer would have dropped, I would have definitely gone for that instead. However, thank SoE for making Rottrued's 1HB drop super-uber rare.
To this day, I still feel my Tier was well spent upgrading from Fabled Savage Platinum Fists (2.00) to the Bile Etched Ritual Dagger (2.5. Given that the only weapon close in ratio that is remotely available would have been the Rottrued Enforcer. Seeing that other events that has a chance to drop a H2H or 1HB aren't on the farm list or even the winning list yet.
You can show me parses all day long. All that shows is dps differences from different classes. Yes, rogues only dps comes from weapons. Bsts have weapons, pets, small nukes & DoTs. Being a jack of multiple trades, I don't gain HUGE benefit from specific items...I gain small to medium upgrades on each item. So, it is very easy to say that any item will benefit someone else other than a Bst. Esepcially if they are a specialized class.
So, does that mean being a Bst, I need to bow down to all specialized classes? This issue could easily be brought up if a Bst were to outbid a Mage on a Pet Foci item. Again, playing class favoritism on loots is an ugly path that AH should not take. Everyone is going to have their own biased opinion about who gets what item. At least with the current system, it is entirely neutral in sense. _________________
lostion and kreavan for pres in 2012!
well done fellas.
The loot system is fine the way it is, leave it alone.
What we need is a do the right thing clause. Not a new rule.
Actual loot system for normal night raids is for me the best we ever try, give the chance to anyone win a item.
If you want 1 item badly you will need to wait, but i am sure than you will get someday, is all matter of strats spending your tier and dkps, no a direct problem from our loot system.
Again like Ww said, we are not posting here for fix our loot system, we are talking about "SUNDAY RAIDS" rules.
Agree with Maneki we need leave to the common sense of the people the decision about pass the item we want to another class if is more beneficial for them.
Talking about the sunday raids rules (/random) we all like win new gear and stuff, but for me if you want win a new item then it need come from your hard work not from the lucky of a day with a /random, i am totally against to the /random system, sucks and more for our pallys dices jeje.
Any other system will be better than /random for far, just we need make the decision wich one we want, including /random because you all can have different opinions than me, good day guys.[/b]
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and have 80ish tiers? 
. Given that the only weapon close in ratio that is remotely available would have been the Rottrued Enforcer. Seeing that other events that has a chance to drop a H2H or 1HB aren't on the farm list or even the winning list yet.
