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Joined: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 1019 Location: Camas, WA
Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:41 am Post subject:
Korinne wrote:
Culd you are such a bastage! /bonk /bonk /bonk
I do have to say you have a damn good point about the people that did show up for P1. If you look at the roster, it was those high tiered people that showed up.
Oh BTW....If it means anything to anyone....we are STILL DOING TIME!
Yeah, I win a lot of arguments....or at least the voices tell me I do /shrug.
I really like you analogy. Continuing in the same theme, I have to point out some of the fallacies. First of all, when we go to the store to buy something, we expect that the store will have more than one of said item and that no preference will be given to any individual to purchase that item. What would you say if the store were to only stock 1 of the item per week, and always give preference to the person with the most money in the bank even though it costs the same to everyone? If you were a consumer trying to purchase that item, what would you think of it then?
Continuing on theme with the wage analogy, assuming that everyone gets paid the same wage, those who can and do work the 7/12's will always have more money than those who can only work the 5/8's. Even if those who work more also buy more, those who cannot work as much for whatever reason would have to save considerably longer to have a hope in hell to catch up with those who work more. Anybody who says this isn't true is simply in denial. /point Culdahl
By the way Culdahl, in direct response to you, I have looked at it. You are currently tier 35. There are only 7 people ahead of you. There is no surprise who those people are, but I will list them anyway...
Beyond that, it drops off quickly with the vast majority of people being in the 10-20 range. I am afraid I just don't see ANYBODY that has caught or surpassed you other than perhaps the other dedicated 7/12 (or7/24) workers such as yourself...
I also looked at Kalakobs rise through the DKP. He has exercised execellent discipline and risen to tier 24 by not spending very many points at all. The only item he has spent the 5 full points on was his epic 1.5 battle and he didnt have a choice on that. As pointed out though, this is an exception and not the norm.
Also in direct response to Culdahl.. I was not at the Time raid on Wed-Thur of this week. I get two nights a week to log in early as I have work and family obligations that must come first. On Wednesday, I was not able to log in until after 11pm pacific and I did not log in at all on Thursday. I raided Corruption on Friday and got my 1dkp for the win, and I raided on Saturday and got nothing for the loss in Adaptation. I am sure that other people have similar situations and did not intentionally miss the Time raid in Wed-Thur so that they could exp or do other things.. and if they did, then /smack.
On a personal note Culdahl, I have nothing but respect for you. I don't think your a dick or have any hard feeling for you. All I am trying to do is bring up a subject and have an open discussion about it. I know I will never make SL because I do just that. Others may be content in just dealing with the situation in silence, not wanting to rock the boat and perhaps be booted for having a "bad attitude". While I myself do not necessarily want or need upgrades from PoTime, I felt the need to bring it up as I have seen many complaints about things in recent weeks and this idea came to me as a possible solution.
Anyway, this will be my last post on the subject. I think I have made my points to the best of my ability and see no use in further attempts at persuading others to actually consider what I am saying with an open mind.
Joined: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 1019 Location: Camas, WA
Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject:
There is no system on this planet in which you can work less and get more...that is simply a fact of life. I am FAR from a hardcore raider...the times AH raids is just about the only time I log on these days.
Something you glossed over is that all of the people listed below me were WAY below me a few months ago...I was in the tier 30 range (just like now) 3+ months ago, so I have been sitting relatively still for months. Lacomb was about 20 tiers below me at one point I believe.
If you plan to make a system that favors those who show up less, than good luck, because it goes against everything I've ever seen in my lifetime (IRL or otherwise).
BTW, the "squad leader" thing is WAY off base. I have done nothing but speak my mind both openly here on the website and, more vigorously, in the SL channel. I think other SL's can attest to my pissing contests with kor and others...I believe I even got into a VERY heated argument with sheiara in open forum here while still being an APP (or shortly after getting membership)...it was so bad I think they locked the thread.
I am by no means someone who bites my tongue and follows the status quo...I do/say what I feel is most logical and I could give half a shit what others think of me in said process:-)
Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 457 Location: Oklahoma
Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject:
an aside. DKP is a heated topic id like to commend all of you for being pretty rational about the whole thing. maybe your hiding it behind your words, but you are choosing your words well, imo it hasnt become personal to anyone yet.
ive seen loot debates get far worse than this.
note: they havent locked /deleted the thread so we are being heard. all viewpoints
ok ok... I know I said I wasn't going to post here any more.. but..
"I have rolled on several drops in time and shyra MANY people have either caught me and/or passed me in DKP " (I'm not good with the whole quoting tool.)
If by "caught and/or passed" you mean drawn within 11 tiers, then yes, a few people have done so.. but I would not say "MANY" and I would not say "passed".
I have not tracked everyone's DKP over time, so I can't say with any certainty who has moved from where to where. Only thing I can look at are the current standings. I have not "glossed over" this fact. I just am not speaking to something that I don't have the details of. One thing that I have noted from the times that I have looked at the DKP standings base on tiers is that the same names are always at the top.
And nowhere in my proposal have I said anything in regards that those who play less should get more. The only thing I am trying to do is suggest a change so that the system is not entirely biased in favor of those who raid more often and attempt to level the playing field to provide a more even distribution of loot to all members.
If you think my proposal would have that effect, then please provide your analysis that shows the details of how making the suggested change would make it favor those who raid less... other than simply saying that 20% of 100 is more than 20% of 50... I don't think any of us would argue that... I hope )
I really like you analogy. Continuing in the same theme, I have to point out some of the fallacies. First of all, when we go to the store to buy something, we expect that the store will have more than one of said item and that no preference will be given to any individual to purchase that item. What would you say if the store were to only stock 1 of the item per week, and always give preference to the person with the most money in the bank even though it costs the same to everyone? If you were a consumer trying to purchase that item, what would you think of it then?
Continuing on theme with the wage analogy, assuming that everyone gets paid the same wage, those who can and do work the 7/12's will always have more money than those who can only work the 5/8's. Even if those who work more also buy more, those who cannot work as much for whatever reason would have to save considerably longer to have a hope in hell to catch up with those who work more. Anybody who says this isn't true is simply in denial.
I also like this analogy... but, think it may need a little more of a twist, Rich/Merc. What REAL store would actually only carry 1 product? What if that product was cocaine? You WOULD prefer to sell to your trusted and loyal buyers. These people may not necessarily have the most money in the bank, but they show up on time and regularly. You trust them. You can count on them to buy your precious product. There is no doubt they'll be there. Occasionally, they'll bring in a friend or you get to know someone who has been around and take the opportunity to sell to them as well. The people who work 7/12s (also beg, steal, cheat... I mean, we ARE dealing cocaine...) will always get more than someone who works 5/8s, I mean, the prices these days... /sheesh!
Maybe I am missing the point of the post, but from what I have read, are you asking those that give more to give up more? I don't see how that is fair at all. The system is doing exacty what it is designed to do: reward those who attend. I have nothing more to say really, I just thought the cocaine analogy was kinda funny and wanted to share, but Culd has made some very good points.
Grav
Edit: I started this post before Elrico posted... I was interrupted with kids homework and all. ANYwho... mostly just thought the cocaine idea was funny and wanted to share, not really to drive home a point or anything...
I first started earning DKP about 2 1/2 years ago with AH - iirc it was right at the time when the tiers were expanded to infinity.
At the time I remember being very aware that I would NEVER be able to catch Dbyx or Ghraa or Threep unless (1) I raided regularly and (2) they stopped raiding regularly (something over which I had no control).
2 1/2 years later Dbyx has long been gone, Ghraa slacked off long enough for me to catch him, but Threep I have yet to catch for any significant period of time.
For me, making Threep spend 10 DKP for an item is almost as satisfying as winning it myself. But even on the rare occasion when that happens, I still know I am always going to be behind him in terms of gear that can be won through AH. I will not get the first Anguish gear, the first Tacvi gear, etc etc...
But we both raid A LOT....... How is it fair, how am I satisfied, knowing that I will always be second at BEST? Well, the reason is because of all those Manaetic Behemoth raids, all those Grummus and Bertox raids, that Threep was at before I signed on. He earned his spot at the top of the pecking order and has put in the time to maintain it. And I find it pretty tough to complain about that.
Now, granted, a chanter just joining today would have a MUCH harder time catching me or Threep or Ghraa even in 2 1/2 years. We have a much bigger head start on new folks than anyone had on me when I started. But there is a reason for that. Folks who join now haven't done for AH what we have.
Our one loot per night limit plus the 10 point bid limit both work together to give newer folks a chance at even some of the best loot.
But - all opinions are welcome - and the officers will listen and consider them with an open mind. _________________
Joined: Jun 05, 2006 Posts: 42 Location: South Florida
Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:25 am Post subject:
That analogy was the best I could do on short notice. =) I understand your concern, I really do. I just don't think that penalizing the high tiered players is the solution. Personally, I would not be comfortable with that system for two reasons. First of all, these people have worked hard to get to that level and have certainly missed out on a lot of items early on in order to get there. Secondly, I hope to be up there myself and would probably resent the fact that someone new or casual can eat up the dkp that I have worked so hard for.
Now, here is one of my observations about the leadership in AH (and I'm sure that you would agree, Elrico, or you would not have bothered to post your concern initially). I really and truly believe that they want to help as many people as they possibly can. And I have seen this in many of the non-leaders as well. However, that puts them in a bit of a quandry for the simple reason that they are also responsible for the group as a whole. So, how do they continue to advance and still help as many people as they can? I don't think there is a simple answer for that. Real life is filled with the "haves" and the "have nots." Those that are able to make a lot of money and those that live below the poverty line. There will always be people that are trying to play "catch up" and will NEVER be geared like those that spend more time in the game. And nothing is ever going to change that. I can only speak for myself now, but I'm sure the sentiment is shared by many when I say that I am at a level that I NEVER would have achieved if not for the help of AH.
Sure, there are items that I want. Yeah, I get disappointed when I miss out on an item because of my low tier or a low roll (/tries to replace his defective die). But all in all, I am much better equipped than I was when I first joined. The people that put in alot of time should be rewarded for their effort. And most, if not all of them, are willing to help the casual raider. Many guilds continue their regular advancement while taking one night a week to do backflagging. We could do the same thing. We can continue to advance as an organization, and at the same time, revisit older content in order to better equip the more casual players. So we help some along, we continue to advance, and those that put in their time still reap the rewards for it. It's a win - win situation.
I don't think that there will be a perfect solution to this issue. If there were, it would wind up on every EQ site and forum on the internet and everyone would be happy. In the meantime, we work with what we have and do the best we can. And Elrico, I want to thank you for bringing up the topic and possibly moving us toward some kind of resolution, even if it is not the way you initially envisioned it. THAT is how progress happens. _________________ Mercenarie - 74 Warrior
Joined: Mar 27, 2004 Posts: 221 Location: Cumberland, Kentucky
Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:47 am Post subject:
Quote:
Continuing on theme with the wage analogy, assuming that everyone gets paid the same wage, those who can and do work the 7/12's will always have more money than those who can only work the 5/8's. Even if those who work more also buy more, those who cannot work as much for whatever reason would have to save considerably longer to have a hope in hell to catch up with those who work more
Hmm, well in that instance I would simply point out that the person who only works the 5/8 is spending their time doing something else other then working and it might be better then work. There are opportunity costs to everything. If you work more then your playing less but have more cash. If you play more then your working less so you have less cash but your having more fun.
If your working more in RL and don't have the time to play as much as Culdahl for instance then I would point out you are probably the better off since your earning more RL money while he is earning more DKP in a game. If you wish to cut down on his DKP then he may have a valid complaint is wanting you to send him some of your money so you can BOTH even things out a bit.
And if by chance you play less EQ cause you want to spend more time with your wife well.....Culdahl might like that as well. Offer some time with her and he would probably even skip a raid or two for it....
Seriously, its hard to stay motivated doing the first night of TIME for alot of us upper tiers. Please don't add further to the disincentive by begrudging us for getting DKP for doing it or planting the idea in my head that all the first night of TIME DKP i earn might "age out" at some point. I would much rather have my personal time back then the DKP. If I thought I might end up with neither......well......
The officers, and the squad leaders as well, have continued to monitor and discuss this issue.
Recently we expanded the maximum raise on loot from 10 DKP to 20. There has been some discussion of eliminating the raise cap altogether, but for now, anyway, we are going to simply leave things alone and see what effect the new, higher raise cap has.
Just keeping you all up to date, and letting you know it is something we are watching actively. _________________
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: dkp
I think that if you put in the time to show up you get the points and if you save for tiers then thats your perogative. For example if you look at mine im a spendthrift. but on items that i want i bid high and raise. Sooner or later the competiton will either A) not need that item slot anymore or B) cant afford it. The best example i can give is the frozen bow of the gelidin from feratha in RSS. Sulsil, franklaw, auldean didnt have it. that meant for me to have a shot at it i would have to wait for them to get it. that meant at least 4 raids for feratha for me to even have a chance. Put in the time and eventually you will get stuff.
I also think that sometimes being the right class at the time is lucky. For example with the number of pallys and clerics we have at raids. the low tiered pallys and clerics will have a larger pool to bid against. lately there hase been only 1 or 2 other rangers, 1 rogue and a couple shammies. My advice is IF you want the item bid high so make them pay or you get it.
Personally im in it for the long haul for AH stuff. so i dont mind waiting. and maybe waiting for the day you get to loot characters!!!
Without giving out too much guild info, Meiyo does a tiered system that works reasonable well in many cases, but can cause serious "value to the person, value to the raid force" problems in unusual circumstances. The system is radically different from what AH does, and quite honestly, I like AH's dkp system much better.
If there were any possible adjustment to the system, I'd suggest decreasing the "tier spread" by increasing the number of total dkp points in a tier....3 isn't much, especially with the dkp values for raids going up as AH attempts many new encounters. This would slow down loot distro slightly since in effect more roll offs would probably occur, but I think it would balance out the "chance to get loot per raid" a bit more in the long run, without severely impacting the system as a whole.
The only other thing I would still be very careful of is awarding dkp to the raid for failed encounters---AH is going to be failing quite a bit in Anguish as the raids progress and we learn the events, and adding dkp to the economy without taking it out is going to cause inflation.
All in all guys, I've participated in just about every type of dkp and award system, and modifications thereof, that exist--and AH is one of the most successful in the long term I've seen.
Joined: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 1019 Location: Camas, WA
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject:
Zenshiss wrote:
Just to give a perspective:
Without giving out too much guild info, Meiyo does a tiered system that works reasonable well in many cases, but can cause serious "value to the person, value to the raid force" problems in unusual circumstances. The system is radically different from what AH does, and quite honestly, I like AH's dkp system much better.
If there were any possible adjustment to the system, I'd suggest decreasing the "tier spread" by increasing the number of total dkp points in a tier....3 isn't much, especially with the dkp values for raids going up as AH attempts many new encounters. This would slow down loot distro slightly since in effect more roll offs would probably occur, but I think it would balance out the "chance to get loot per raid" a bit more in the long run, without severely impacting the system as a whole.
The only other thing I would still be very careful of is awarding dkp to the raid for failed encounters---AH is going to be failing quite a bit in Anguish as the raids progress and we learn the events, and adding dkp to the economy without taking it out is going to cause inflation.
All in all guys, I've participated in just about every type of dkp and award system, and modifications thereof, that exist--and AH is one of the most successful in the long term I've seen.
I suggested basically the same thing, but no one listens to culdahl........actually, I proposed a tiered increase to the tier spread, something like - tier 1-9 = 3pts/tier, 10-19 = 4pts/tier, 20-29 = 5pts/tier, so on and so forth, thus keeping tiers tighter as you progress in DKP. This would allow lowered tiered folks to catch up faster, but it would also allow the higher tiered folks to be more solidified in their given tier.
Paying on fails is just a bad bad practice. In the end all it does is create dkp inflation (money comes into the economy and nothing is presented to spend it on). Add to the fact that squad leaders are paid DKP for leading groups and you have a double dip. Squad Leaders (who by their activity of usually coming to all raids) recieve an even larger gain from paid fails. Thus increasing the dkp spread of low to highs.
Paying on fails is just a bad bad practice. In the end all it does is create dkp inflation
I know a lot of folks think this. And I know I cannot convince you otherwise.
DKP isn't like money. DKP *inflation* is not a problem. All DKP does is put folks in an order. Regardless of the number of points you have you either are first, second or third etc in line for loot.
Capped raises allow folks to sustain their position even after a win. And that's ok - most of AH seems to like that feature.
The funny thing is that - the folks who want DKP awarded for fails also think it is analagous to money. They think they are being *paid* with DKP for their time. But it's not like money. All you are getting is an opportunity to *close in* on your fellow raider who is in a position ahead of you. And why should you be rewarded with that closure because you got owned by Mob X? You shouldn't - but again, I know I can say that over and over 100 different ways and it's totally pointless.
So - in principle - I agree with Sulsil - I do not like rewarding failure. However, we do it because many of our raiders want it that way. They want it to the point where they refuse to raid if they think we might fail. And that is not helpful.
Anyway - was just posting to let you all know the issue hadn't been forgotten. _________________
Well, from what I remember when we were discussing enlarging tiers, the upper tiers seemed to feel like that was punishment of some sort to them. I like to think that any good punishment involves a whip and possibly some handcuffs, but opinions differ I guess.
What we had hoped to do was just eliminate tiers and go to a straight-up auction system, where you bid and whoever was willing to pay the most won the item (while still including a limit on wins per night). However, that did not seem to go over well with the majority of squad leaders.
Personally, I don't like tiers. Those who raid more already have an advantage in that they have more points to spend, and that is the way it should be. You put more time in you should get more out of it. However, I feel it is detrimental to give an additional advantage through the use of tiers and capped bids. It's kind of like giving the rich tax breaks in my mind.
Anyways, failures get dkp now because the goal is to get people to attend raids, especially when we are learning new encounters. It shouldn't be necessary, but we have some people who will only show when they think they are getting a tangible reward. So it's a necessary evil to continue to progress. I don't think that the majority are this way, but we have a limited enough selection of players that losing even a few can make the difference between a win and a fail.
And, err, those are my thoughts for the night. Time for ZzZzZzZzzz.
Um...I'm not sure who thought of the idea "no points for failures"...but they clearly missed the boat on what DKP is. It's a point system to reward those who raid the most.
The calamity that arises when you don't give points for failures is easily illustrated.
Say you have a new guild. Everyone has 0 dkp. You start trying to raid PoP targets and you wipe after wipe after wipe. Eventually you succeed. Loot finally drops. Who gets it? Everyone's still at 0 dkp. Isn't dkp supposed to reward the people that raid the most?
Now about tiers and such:
There's 2 schools of thought. Are we out to just reward those who have raided the longest with AH, or are we trying to get everyone geared up so that we can raid harder targets? With AH's dkp system, you're encouraged to be stingy. Save your points. I've read posts saying this! Members are GIVING THIS ADVICE! W-T-F? New members should be getting the most upgrades. Sure, they haven't "paid their dues," but their gear is also the weakest! If you have large disparities in your levels of gear...well you're going to have tons of failures and inconsistent performances.
New members should be getting tons of upgrades really quickly to get them to a minimal level of gear so they can contribute. I'm not saying they should get those nice 320 hp/mana items that are dropping in Sverag or those MPG Trial pants w/ the nice focus. Of course not, that's what saving your points is for. But where are the masses of 200hp/mana gear for that new member to gear up in? If he's still wearing those +85 mana/hp bracers that he bought in the bazaar, he won't be able to contribute much. Raids depend on every single member being able to contribute.
AH seems to be of the philosophy "pay your dues first, then we'll help." This is a good philosophy for a guild where applicants are coming from other raiding guilds. However, AH applicants are not generally well geared. No time is spent gearing them up AND they have to fight a dkp system that puts them at a huge advantage until they "save enough points."
If AH is going to keep their current dkp system, please raid PoTime, DoN Dragons, etc... Raid places where lots of loot will drop quickly. Some loot will rot, some will go to alts, but some will go to new members -- and they are what are crucial. They are your weak links in the present, and they are your future raiding core. These raids are necessary to get them their gear so they can contribute on MPG trials. If you have say 15% of your raid force not equipped for a target, you'll probably fail. On a 50 person raid, that's 7 people who arent ready. If 2 of those are healers, that's 2 groups that won't be healed. Or that's a cleric that wont be able to keep up w/ the Cheal chain. Or that's a chanter who wont be able to mez effectively. A tank who will die too quickly to AEs or to adds. A dps class who will be just dead weight. etc...
AH didn't fail so many MPG trials because they are just so ridiculously difficult or because the majority of the guild wasn't geared + AAs ready for them. They failed them because there existed a minority that wasnt ready, and no time was spent tending to this minority. In the end, you're only as strong as your weakest links.
Now AH is heading to Anguish. The top tier tanks will be ready (you know who you are). The low-tier tanks will be hiding and afraid to pick up trash. The top healers will be just fine (you know who you are). The low-tier healers will be going oom too quickly. Beating anguish won't just be about your strats or learning the target. It will be about having an adequately equipped raid force to go with it.
In conclusion, if AH stays with it's current dkp system, it needs to farm more easy targets in order to increase the quantity of low-quality loot that is dropping so there are less weak links in the chain.
As an aside, to the upper tiers who think they are being penalized or some such nonsense by a non-tiered system or whatever is being considered...if you don't get other people geared up, you won't see the uber loot that you've been saving your points for. You'll just see more wipes and wonder "what's going on?"
Joined: Nov 26, 2005 Posts: 470 Location: Planet of the Apes
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:24 am Post subject:
Ok, summarizing a bit of what i've read:
- Lower tiers don't get much loot because they've not "paid their dues" and can't "afford" the better gear
- We're raiding higher level content so there is not much lower level loot that drops, higher levels need the higher stuff and have the dkp to get it
- People want more DKP i.e. everyone always wants more "money"
- Higher level raiders don't want to do the lower content because its boring and they don't gain much from it when they'd rather spend our raid days on higher level content
- We want to encourage people to raid (higher tiers and new recruits)
- We want new members to join, stick around, and get decently geared quickly so they can contribute.
What it sounds like to me is that the best way to...
+ get more cheap loot
+ allow people to get more DKP
+ encourage new members to stick around because they can get loot that most older members don't need
+ get them decently geared for our higher level fights, and
+ not upset the higher tiered players with doing lots of raids where they wouldn't have any benefit
....is to add a day or two of raiding i.e. sun/mon/ or tues, where we only hit the lower level targets that the majority of AH has already gotten through and become bored with. These would then of course be naturally attended primarily by lower tier/new members/apps which would get the most benefit, and still be challenging.
Let "RL's in training" run these so that we get more RL's up to speed and make AH stronger and don't overburden our current RL's and officers. Any member participate to get more DKP if they want and the targets would be based on attendance those days and decided at raid time, more like it was during our PoP era.
If this is done it would seem that we could leave the DKP system unchanged... i.e. we'd be increasing supply AND funds, which would reduce any "dkpflation", rather than just increasing demand or funds or competition (by bringing in new members, changing the dkp awarding ratios, or reducing the pts/tier).
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As pointed out though, this is an exception and not the norm.
