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Joined: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 1019 Location: Camas, WA
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: Shielding
Here is some info on shielding that was requested by an AH member. Read and enjoy:-)
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Mobs have 3 variables. DB = Damage base, DI = Damage Interval, and Attack = how often they will land a hit and how high of an interval they will hit at on average.
Damage = DB + (1-20)*DI
Thus there are 20 discrete values for the damage a mob may do, ranging from:
Minimum Damage = DB + 1*DI
Maximum Damage = DB + 20*DI
DI is established by collecting data on the mob and finding the difference between the 2 closest hits. Maximum damage can be determined by sitting and letting the mob hit you. It will hit for maximum. Subtract the DI value you established earlier from the maximum hit and you get the mob's DB.
Warrior innate mitigation = DB + 0.95*(1-20)*DI
Warrior defensive discipline = DB + 0.5*(1-20)*DI
So, let's use two extreme examples:
Mob_A - DB=50, DI=100
Minimum hit is 150, 250, 350, 450, 550, 650, 750... and maximum is 2050 for non-wars
Minimum hit is 145, 240, 335, 430, 525, 620, 715... and maximum is 1950 for wars
Under Defensive, minimum hit is 100 and maximum is 1050
There's a big difference between the maximum hit under Defensive and without it. Further the range of possible hits (maximum hit-minimum hit) when not under Defensive is quite high making healing needs a bit unpredictable.
Mob_B - DB=1800, DI=10
Minimum hit is 1810 and maximum is 2000 for non-wars
Minimum hit is 1809 and maximum is 1990 for wars
Under Defensive, minimum hit is 1805 and maximum is 1900
There is very little difference between the maximum hit under Defensive and without it. Further the range of possible hits (maximum hit-minimum hit) is nearly identical with or without Defensive.
Thus, if a is mob hitting for a wide range of values, the chances are that it's DI is high and you will benefit from using Defensive. If two values are pretty close and it's consistantly hitting for very simular values, the DB is doing most of the damage and DI is likely fairly low - use Evasive.
With that said, let's say an average Tacvi named that has a DB = 500 and DI = 250 (this seems to be the case with a lot of Tacvi mobs who hit between 700's-5000+). This means it's range is (DB+1*DI) 750 up to (DB+20*DI) 5500 for any class or (DB+0.95*1*DI) 738 up to DB*20*0.95*DI) 5250 for warriors with the inherent 0.95 DI mod without using any discs.
Shielding modifies the DB but not the DI nor does it affect avoidance.
Hence a warrior with 0% shielding will be hit for (1*DB+0.95*1*DI ~ 1*DB+0.95*20*DI) = 738 ~ 5250 on this mob.
A warrior with 10% shielding will be hit for ([1-0.1]*DB+0.95*1*DI ~ [1-0.1]*DB+0.95*20*DI) = 688-5200 without any discs.
Hence, a mob that has a DB of 500 and DI of 250 will hit for:
So a war w/o any shielding will be hit 738-5250 and a war w/ MAX 35% shielding will be hit 563-5095 for the average Tacvi mob.
The average hit is variable for each mob with this set DB and DI based on its attack.
Defensive modifies DI to 0.5 but does not touch DB. Hence a defensive war will be hit for ([1-shielding percent]*DB+0.5*1*DI up to [1-shielding percent]*DB+0.5*20*DI) or:
Non-wars w/o shielding = 750-5500
War (defensive) w/ 0% shielding = 625-3000
War (defensive) w/ 35% shielding = 450-2825
I hope this clarifies how shielding works. Hence, shielding is useful but not as game-defining as a lot of people seem to think because most mobs have high attack which means they will hit with higher DI (so closer to 5250 vs 5095 for someone w/ 0% shielding compared to someone with 35% shielding) than on the lower end. Hence on a max hit on a defensive warrior, 35% shielding = 5% mitigation on the first Tacvi example or 11.7% mitigation on the 2nd example.
As you can see shielding is highly DB dependent and and most Tacvi mobs seem to range from 500-1000 on DB. But the fact remains that 35% shielding is NOT 35% mitigation which some people seem to believe.
In relation to AC, it basically modifies attack rating of a mob. Attack affects how often a mob will hit someone as well as what range in 1-20 DI it will hit on average. How this actually works, I cannot explain it in full detail because I don't understand it fully. From what I understand, it might change both the chance of being hit (although some wars state that it does not) and it definitely affects the average DI to make it lower. AC does NOT affect DB.
HP's is self-explanatory, but most people state that AC and shielding are more important than HP on the high end. So why does 1000 hp difference mean very little if AC and shielding are equivalent between 2 tanks? On a mob with DI = 500 and DB = 250, they will be able to take less than 1 more hit on average (median is 2994, mean varies with attack but basically a war would need 2000+ hp difference to take even one more HIT).
AC and shielding are the more important variables because it will cut down the DI and DB respectively, meaning lower average damage which equates to lower spike damage meaning a tank will live longer. This fact becomes even more salient if you consider that pious light will heal for ~ 6000 non-crit or ~ 12000 crit, meaning you can't heal a tank fully over 12000 hp anyway unless you crit a CH. Once a tank has over 12khp, in theory if they are fully healed it takes another 2k+ hp to survive ONE additional hit.
So what does this all mean?
Shielding is good for mobs with high DB and low DI
AC is good for mobs with low DB and high DI
Generally, shielding and/or AC >> HP for tanks once a tank is over 12k range
HP is useful for mobs that proc or cast spells a lot
Relatively speaking =
On non-proc pre-GoD trash, DB is low and DI is low = AC > Shielding > HP
On proc pre-GoD trash, DI is low and DB is low and procs are also low = AC > Shielding > HP
On non-proc GoD trash, DI is moderate and DB is low = Shielding >> AC > HP
On proc GoD trash (kyvs), DI is moderate and DB is low but procs are high = HP > Shielding >> AC
On non-proc PoP era bosses, DI is moderate and DB is low = Shielding > AC > HP
On proc-PoP era bosses, DI is moderate and DB is low and procs are relatively low = Shielding > AC > HP
On non-proc GoD bosses, DI is moderate and DB is high, DI is moderate and DI is high = AC > Shielding > HP
On proc GoD bosses, DI is moderate and DB is high and procs are relatively moderate = AC > Shielding > HP
Can you make a relative scale for the Shielding vs. AC vs. HP? Not really, since it is variable by each mob based on DB, DI, Attack and Procs. But the AC mitigation curve is pretty linear under 2000, has diminishing returns over 2000 and is believed to become fairly flat at 3000. Shielding is linear and caps at 35%. HP is linear without a cap, but in terms of returns it is diminishing over 12khp limited by heals.
But you still want a rough estimate of what a relative scale would be? A parse on a riftseeker's TRASH shows:
1% shielding = 40-50 HP = 24 AC
Keep in mind that this varies a lot by the mob you are fighting. Extrapolation for what we face would probably be roughly:
Non-proc GoD trash ~ 1% shielding = 50HP = 24AC
Proc GoD trash (kyvs) ~ 1% shielding = 25HP = 24AC
Non-proc GoD boss ~ 1% shielding = 90HP = 15AC
Proc-GoD boss ~ 1% shielding = 70HP = 15AC
Keep in mind that this is primarily for tanks. For casters, shielding will mitigate the same. HP will be the same. But AC is a lot more useless since the effect it has on DI will be a lot less for non-tank classes on the inherent tables.
1. Shielding does not work as % shielding = % mitigation
2. DB = base, DI = interval from 1-20 and all mobs are DB + (1-20)*DI in their damage
3. Shielding affects DB but not DI
4. AC affects DI but not DB
5. HP does NOT affect either
6. Shielding is best for mobs with high DB but low DI
7. AC is best for mobs with high DI but low DB
8. HP is best for mobs that proc a lot
9. For casters, AC is almost useless because of their inherent tables, making shielding and HP more important
10. For what we are doing, tanks should probably focus on AC > Shielding > HP once they are over 12khp
Joined: Aug 09, 2005 Posts: 684 Location: California
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:43 am Post subject:
Thank you for typiung this up Culd! I think I've seen it before and it's finally starting to make sense.
Is the 12k HP at which to start concentrating on AC over HP buffed or un-buffed?
The quick breakdown is that 75% of the time AC is most important and 12.5% of the time it is shielding and 12.5% of the time it is HP's.
Auldaen, is that an Un Laden Swallow?
Ardnasc, I prefer to work on AC over HP no matter what my HP's are; most of the time that is your big bang for the buck. If it is a LARGE amount of HP gain and only a small amount of AC I will go HP but ATM my ac is around 2150 so I get less for the AC points since I am passed 2000.
Joined: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 1019 Location: Camas, WA
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject:
First, I did not write this...it was a cut and paste job. The person who did put this together spent countless hours parsing mobs in order to reach these conclusions.
Ard,
There's a lot more info on how exactly AC works and there is a lot of misinformation out there in regards to the value of AC. Unlike what a lot of people think there is no hard cap on AC...the only cap on AC is at, or around, 1400AC and this is a "softcap". What that means is that after 1400AC, or so, you start to get diminishing returns on your AC. This doesn't mean that one should stop worrying about AC post 1400, because the parses show mitigation gains over 4K AC. This is also why shields are so important...shields do NOT count against the "softcap", so you get more value out of each point of AC from a shield then any other piece of equipment (IE - if the softcap is 1400 and you have a 100AC shield then YOUR softcap would be 1500).
Basically, the value of AC depends on the mob you are tanking. A mob's attack determines how much AC you need. The trick is to get enough AC so that your average DI is close to 6ish....in other words, you want the incoming melee to be as close to minimum hits as possible. The more AC you have the less average damage you will take.
As far as when should you focus on AC?: You should be focusing on AC now. There is no exact number in which you should shoot for in terms of HPs.....you should try to get to a point where the content you are facing cannot 1 round you, but, if you already have decent AC, chances are you will never take a full damage round, so you really just want to shoot for being able to survive a couple of bad rounds. In the content we face you already have more then enough HPs (we rarely face mobs that hit harder then 3K and quad, so as long as you have 12K+ buffed HP you should be able to survive a bad round).
Also, warriors and knights have slightly different needs.....a knight's primary role is to OT, so we need to be able to take damage without being the focus of the healers. This makes AC even more valuable to us, because we won't take huge DPS as an OT, but we will need to keep the DPS even (IE - mitigation), so that the healers can keep us up. Warriors, on the other hand, tend to be MT's and, therefore, are the focus of heal chains, so they tend to value HPs a bit more then knights do....in other words, more HP's for them gives the heal chain more wiggle room, but, even with more HPs, they should still have solid AC or those extra HPs will be eaten up before any healer gets a heal off.
I tend to pick augs at about a 1:7ish ratio.....this means that a 10AC aug would be = to a 70HPaug (or there-abouts). Most warriors I've seen tend to go with a more conservative 1:3-1:5 ratio when choosing equipment...basically, anything in the 1:5-1:10 range should be fine for most people, unless you're terribly lopsided one way or the other to begin with.
Currently, I have about 12 AC augs equipped and a few shielding/avoidance augs.....I'm guessing most of our tanks would benefit from farming more AC augs. At the least you should shoot for 4x http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=31997 + 4x http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=82068 + the DoD AC mission rewards like "last migration", "lost gnomes" (normal), etc (also, the ones from the new MM's in PoR). With those augs you should have decent AC.
In short, you can’t go wrong with more AC. An 8500HP/2500AC tank > 10,000HP/2000AC tank in almost ALL cases. AC not only makes the average DPS less, but it also greatly reduces damage “spikesâ€, which helps keep you alive.
Hope that helps:-) If not, feel free to ask more questions…..
P.S. - You need to put the following quote into context:
Quote:
Can you make a relative scale for the Shielding vs. AC vs. HP? Not really, since it is variable by each mob based on DB, DI, Attack and Procs. But the AC mitigation curve is pretty linear under 2000, has diminishing returns over 2000 and is believed to become fairly flat at 3000. Shielding is linear and caps at 35%. HP is linear without a cap, but in terms of returns it is diminishing over 12khp limited by heals.
At the time this was parsed the content was different. In other words, 3K AC was approaching max effectiveness for the mob's attack for the content at that level. More recent posts on higher attack mobs (newer content) have shown gains at the 4K ac+ level. One parse was against an RSS mob and showed solid gains up to about 2700AC, or so, and the gains didn't start to drop off until about the 3200 level (and that was RSS trash). Basically, you can't have enough AC for today's content...DoD trash + named mobs have MUCH higher attack then the mobs used in this parse.
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