[Elrico]

Not sure why original was locked. An open discussion of the topic and all ideas is in order. Private PM's to squad leaders would seem to squelch the free flow of ideas and thoughts.

I know I have been out for a while.. First it was work, then I was sick, and at one point, I just didn't miss playing. But after about 6 weeks out, I came back, got the SoF expansion and have been working on Levels. When I saw the Sendai announcement, I came out to support the effort.

I can't speak for others, but my opinion is that we need clear direction, focus, and absolute persistence. I also think that we should go back to consistently announcing planned targets.

I think Shieara has done a fine job of setting the general direction and goals. I know the realization of those goals may be slower than some would like, but that is to be expected of a casual raiding organization.

That brings me to persistence. Nothing irks me more than to spend a huge amount of time getting to a target, buffing, clearing, making one attempt.. and then giving up. I was thrilled the other night when we went back to Sendai after our first wipe (ugly ugly) and we vindicated ourselves with a win even after nine people left (according to Vudu's count). I also recall that before I was out, we kept hammering at Vish and eventually got our first kill.

I know that leadership thinks people get frustrated by several failures in one night, but we get even more frustrated with failures week after week. Typically, the first attempt at something that has not been done in a while or has never been won will not go so well. But once we go through it the first time, see where we went wrong and go right back at it, we have a much better chance of winning than if we give up, wait for the next week, and make another single attempt with a completely different mix of people. That is where true frustration and fatigue come in.

I also beleive that the decline of attendace was occuring well before we took a break for the SoF expansion. It was evident back in October before I had my absence. To me, the fact that we had 50 people for Sendai was clear evidence that people will show up when a target is announced and that target interests them.

If I recall, a decision was made not to announce raids because people were picking and choosing when to attend and epic nights and other targets were getting low attendance. I admit, I was one of those. I only get two nights a week to log in early and raid with AH. I chose progression and loot raids. I skipped epic nights so that I could keep up in progression and also keep advancing my own character. I do not apologize for nor regret those decisions. I am sure most of you would understand.

It is my opinion and suggestion that we keep a focused goal in mind, set consistent targets to obtain those goals, and be persistent in acheiving those goals.

I also beleive that if you announce the specific targets ahead of time, you may find that you get better attendance, as demonstrated with Sendai. If the target for the night is unknown, people may choose a known group or other personal target/goal of their own instead of spinning the wheel and taking whatever target we happen to have enough people for that night. You never know.... may be worth considering.....

Anyway.. those are my thoughts/ideas... and that's all I have to say about that....

Cheers,

Rich

[Shieara]

I actually quit setting targets because I would pick stuff and then not have the numbers to do it. Nothing more pointless then setting targets for an entire week and not being able to do any of them. Plus we were doing the same four or five targets every week and I got tired of copy/pasting.

I don't mind re-posting them if people want me to. Just keep in mind I cannot guarantee we will do a target. It always depends on numbers and class mix. I am amazed at people who ask what target we are doing that night. I usually decide like 5 min before otm because I just never know. Also, if we have CoA planned, and 45 people show, you can wager we are otm to Draygun or Sendaii right then.

One reason we don't always keep trying targets also is it gets too late and we lose too many people. I remember one time we did Dray and had 44ish people, then after the first attempt six left. Six people maybe doesn't sound like a lot but it makes a huge difference. Clerics are a limiting factor too. If a mob hits for x amount it will take minimum y clerics to keep a tank alive and then z for any additional heals required. I usually have set in my mind a minimum number of raiders in general, and then clerics. I look at dps next and tanks last cause we have a lot of them.

Anyways I hope that explains a little bit why sometimes we don't do things repeatedly. There's a lot to consider.

[Culdahl]

We are an open group and, as such, people put us second to their guilds and, at times, their own interests. For instance, we have some members who are currently raiding CoA with their guilds, so if we announce that ahead of time you can bet those folks won't be showing up. Conversely, some people don't want to do the progression targets because they're hard and they typically net little loot......You haven't found it odd that we can start the night with, say, 29, then as soon as CoA is announced 15 more people show up?

Believe me, your points are being addressed and have been addressed for quite some time, but there’s just not much we can do when we have 2 clerics show up for a raid and one of them is boxed. Calling big progression targets can push more people to log-in/show up, but that only covers that one target and we can't plan every night that way because our targets are based on raid attendance.

Give us 3 more clerics (every night) and 40+ people and we'd be raiding TSS by now....we can't continue to progress with people showing up as they have been for the last few months.

BTW, Tetra posted a nice little graph in the officer forum that shows a natural decline of raiders around the holidays.....AH's peak season is during the spring months. Xmas/summer tends to be our lowest attendance levels.

[Suegar]

Omg, gimme access to this fabled officer forum for the leet graphs ! =(
_________________
The best leaders use the carrot and the stick. When elg does use the carrot, it's to pistol whip tanks into compliance

[Culdahl]

Culd's got mad hacking skillz:

[xilraazz]

Ok, I don't raid with you guys much at all, 99% of that is because of trying to keep up with my guild and guild progression. SoF left a big stack of work on my plate for EQ. Between like 89782350084225 factions to work on for spells, there's ton's of aa's, and a couple keys to work on. Not to mention my guild is raiding when you all start your raids. Originally when I joined AH, I was working a shift that put me logging in right as my guild was finishing and I wanted to raid something, so I joined you guys. Shortly after my app period started, my hours at work changed and it allows me to raid with my guild every night.

Personally, I think making more than 1 run on a target (especially new targets) is a good idea. We almost never leave a mob after 1 attempt, losing people or not. I know on event 2 in solteris, we would try that mob 5-6 times a night, and it took us 108 days from the first kill on event 1 until our first kill of event 2. And our raid attendance really started to suck getting close to the end of that. We've beaten a lot of events with 5-10 people in the raid boxing. We raid daily with at least 2 boxed clerics.

My point is, maybe you should set a night for "a progression target", leave it open to which because some are easier than others and plan on making at least 2 runs at it if the first fails. Because every run you make for the first 5-10, someone on the raid, will learn something about how the event works and that will make them better able to do their job. So even if you lose some people, give it a shot anyway. Obviously you can't do anything too hard with only 2 clerics but if people can box one, let them, a CH loop isn't all that hard to do boxed. Might be worth a shot.
_________________

[Vudukitty]

Well here goes again.

The reason it was locked was it was not meant for discussion. I posted for the shear reason of trying to get back the attention of some of the people that are currently taking time away from us, (ie vacationing from AH). We as an organization stopped posting targets because we found that membership tried to pick and choose the targets they wanted loot/flags/exp from. Not saying anyone inparticular again... just that some have done this repetitvely enough that it became annoying. So once again the crappiness of the few determined a bad outcome for the many. I realize that holday periods are a slow down for us, always have been, just look back at some of the postings through the years by me and others at this time of year. Again it wasn't meant to put any sand in anyones crotch, ( another Culdism, the filthy whore...).

I posted to get the attention of the few ppl that decide waiting around in the GL or duoing a gimp named in CB or such is worth more attention than AH on their warped sense of reality. Again when I see numbers that I posted previously, what should I take from that?

The previous message was meant to rally the troops, get the attention of some of our lesser seen people and have them focus on why they joined us in the first place. We have a fairly large membership base and if we had a fraction of them show moreso we could be doing just about anything by now.

I also have taken notice on the CoA thing, I sincerely hope that those of you out there that only want the loot take a look at the process as a whole and decide what is best for you and AH is not to be picky about the targets where you may get loot. Eventually everyone gets loot. CoA is a good spot to farm loot, and we will continue to do so, but my god, 9 months ago we started farming CoA, we could be doing so much more than that if some of those who are picky would show. When we start taking out Demi the gear there will be a bit better and again it will be a decent place to farm loot. But there again I hope that you are not picking it just for the chance at loot. You should notice that more than a few ppl have gained in DKP through the course of doing CoA, this is because they attended regularly and haven't been picky on target selection nor on helping AH out. More than a few have gone into high teirs that if the gear drops in Demi they will probably get it first due to tier status, so again picking and choosing targets based on the posibility of loot is probably not going to get you much in the long run if that is the plan. We now haave beaten sendaii and all of the blood riads and Vule and can go into Demi, and farm the alt flag for Demi for loot(as in CoA) With consistent numbers we will beat the named in there repetitively enough for farming. We also will be working on Vergalid and TSS raids. As a member the opportunity for these areas is almost unlimited, provided we get people to show.

So before you respond to this, just take an honest look at why the posting took place in the first place: A call to those who have either lost their way to us, and also to start regaining the focus from the membership.

That is all,

Vudu

[Elrico]

I understand why you posted. You see 40+ in channel and 20 in raid and have to cancel a raid because people are not showing up. Your frustrated showing up night after night and not seeing the same commitment from everyone else. Believe me, I get it.

However, not everyone is coming from the same place you are. We can't raid with AH every night for whatever reason, work, family, guild obligations... the list goes on. There are those who can and do raid with AH every night, and the tiers definitely reflect that.

You yourself mention the most likely recent reason that attendance is low. People are excited by the new expansion and the gear, levels, and tradeskill opportunity it brings.

How do you get people back into raiding with AH instead of pursuing their own goals you ask?

Simple... excite them with you vision and plans !!! You are not going to get anybody to change their ways by berating them for not comign to raids or trying to shame them into showing up. It just won't work.

We had a huge turnout for Sendai and we won. Lets carry on with that momentum and call for Shyra and Draygun on Wednesday. Maybe even go so far as to squeeze a vish kill in if all goes well. If not, then give vish a beat down on Thursday. Of course, now that we are not removing curses and DP raiding is just over the horizon, I beleive that Vule supercedes any planned targets if he is up.

In short, be positive and not negative. I know your are frustrated and upset with the slow progression but don't let that turn you down the path of negative leadership. Inspire the membership with you vision. Set a clearly defined goal... ( I think I saw Shieara say DP raids by February?). list the steps needed to accomplisth that goal .. ( repeating all the blood raids a couple of more times each? ) ... and then present a clear plan and schedule for completing those steps. If I know ahead of time which nights will be slotted for targets which I know will need the full force of AH to win, I will do my best to be there to support the effort.. as I was for Sendai.

However, if it is left up to pure chance to have enough people online on any given night in order take on these targets, I think you will find that the stars will align properly far less than you would like.

[Culdahl]

We've always had clearly defined goals; if you don't believe me, reread the forums and see just what our goals have been throughout the years.

IMO, vudu wasn't being negative at all, he was simply pointing out a fact. It has been our "goal" to bet sendaii and raid demi for quite some time, yet no one shows up and when they do show up it's for easy loot targets like CoA.

Hell, we could be in TSS right now if people showed up every night (or even most nights), but we can't do anything with 2 clerics and 5 dps.

The real problem is that our core players are tanks, BLs, ranger, etc. and although they do help the raid, they are not clerics and/or rogues/zerkers. We need more DPS classes and many more clerics to succeed at any level.

If you really want to be "positive" help us recruit those classes, because the sky is the limit with the right raid make-up.....

BTW, don't let the sendaii thing fool you....our attendance has been highest on friday nights anyway and we planned that quite some time in advance (not to mention it is the final piece in a progression series). If we "called" severan on wednesday we would still get the same 25-35 people with 2 clerics.

[Ladile]

I don't really have anything to add to the discussion itself, but I feel like I should explain myself a little - the reasons I've been offline lately (though I still read the website regularly) are due to school and other RL matters that take priority at the moment. I'm not sure when things will settle down again, but when they do, I hope to be back online more often.

[Ardnasc]

Everyone please keep an eye out for good players that may like to raid with us - we need more! The requirements for many classes have been reduced to encourage more applicants.

If you have any positive or constructive suggestions on how to increase attendance please either post it or PM an officer or SL.

Take care Ladile study hard and have fun with whatever else you are doing. We will keep the light on for you and look forward to whenever you come back to play.

Have Fun!
Ardnasc
_________________
Have Fun!Ardnasc

[Selvan]

In my opinion it is dangerous to make a statement that others might have any strong feelings about, and then lock it so others can not air their opinions. You run the risk of people thinking that you are not interested in their ideas, or worse, that you do not care what they think.

As a leader in my guild I have done this a few times, but very rarely, and only for things that I feel are conditions of participation in the guild. Things such as PG content for guild chat because we are a family guild and such. Conditions of participation are things that no matter how you feel about them you will follow them if you choose to participate. If you disagree then you should find another home, because these types of decissions are not subject to debate and change.

As leaders here you all have this right to make conditions of participation, and we have the right not to participate anymore if we feel strongly enough in the opposite direction of a decission.

It is my opinion that anything that is put forth and is not a condition of participation should be left open for discussion. People who feel they are able to put forth imput on any given subject are more likely to feel they are part of the overall process, and will have higher moral.

In any event all of this is just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

Selvan