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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:37 am Post subject: End of GM Joint Raids
Well I'm afraid to say we won't be raiding jointly with GM again for the foreseeable future.
Apparently many of the GM members have felt that AH has won too much of the loot, and didn't enjoy the nature of joint raids (having so many raiders that boxes have to drop etc). The GM management called for a vote on cancelling the raids, and the GM members voted Yes. While the GM management don't seem to wholly agree with the membership on this matter, the majority vote ruled and the decision has been made.
During our alliance with GM, and with AH's earlier alliance with CoT, I heard frustrations from both sides that one organization was getting more out of it than the other. This is just one of the quirks of joint raiding, and not something I think any of us should take personally. GM will continue to be friends of AH, but excluding the occasional drunken kiss, we're sleeping i separate beds and seeing other people.
AH has certainly benefited a lot from the relationship however. We now have a lot of experience on winning BMK1 and AG raids, and have grown to the point we are able to beat FC1 singlehandedly. While it is sad to see GM go, we are stronger than we've been in a year, and will continue to grow.
Please note that Friday raids will now revert to the same hours as our normal raids:
8pm PST / 9pm MST / 10pm CST / 11pm EST. _________________ http://www.spamhelp.org/harvesterkiller/
I only made it to one or two joint raids and it was someting to look foreward to. Too bad they let the business part of EQ(loots), take over the fun part of EQ ( winning).
Well, as long as dkp was getting earned in the same rate, I can only say that it is just a matter of who wanted it more, and who was willing to pay more to get the loot. If it wasn't, then yes, it was a problem.
I've passed on many an upgrade over the course of the time I've been in AH, just because I wasn't willing to spend the dkp to win it. Other people thought differently, and therefore deserved the item more.
Sometimes I'm boggled by what people are willing to spend, but eh, thats what they want to do.
Joined: Apr 01, 2005 Posts: 1202 Location: West Virginia
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:16 am Post subject:
I think this has been a learning experience for AH and I think both AH and GM have learned a few lessons during our joint raids. I was only able to attend one, due to the start hour, but I did get to kill sothgar(sp) in Ashengate so that was cool. Loot is loot and there will always be a piece some one wants, raid more if you want it that bad is my philosophy. Not only that, some people dont see things as a "big picture", drop a box get a real toon in its place and be able to beat the boss faster and that is bad? Cant make 50% of the people happy most the time so majority rules, oh well. At least Friday will be back to normal hours so that is a blessing in disguss and Hope to be albe to hit a few targets this week with you all. _________________ 85 Ranger|85 Shaman
Plus 85 Cleric
Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 1688 Location: San Jose California
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:55 am Post subject:
I for one was always having to show up to these raids late anyways. They started the same time I got off work so I dont have the benefit of the full experience to draw from. I do want to say that I almost dreaded a win on these raids as the loot process took forever. I like how we do things much better. _________________
This is disappointing, but as AH carried them....Meh...
Who was MT ? Who had the higher levels/aa's? Who had the raiding expeierence?
The GM officers were doing most of the raid leading on Fridays. So you have to give them that.
Also, for some numbers.
Last Friday Night raid started with 24 GM and 25 AH. Later, we had about 17 GM, and 31 AH. Because AH players normally play later at night, they kept coming in and filling up the empty spots as the night went on.
The raid lasted 4.5 hours.
So, the question is, can AH do AG-North with less people in less time? That first battle was pretty intense still
Although I haven't won anything during Friday nights, I've seen AG east, west, north, and BMK1. All "new" content for me _________________
I suspect the most popular frustration was the feeling AH won too much loot. That would have been easy to fix by just playing with the 5:1 GM:Ah exchange rate a little. Unfortunately we scheduled quite a few meetings with GM management and it wasn't mentioned, so I guess they didn't realise how the members felt until it was too late.
Zacatac wrote:
The GM officers were doing most of the raid leading on Fridays. So you have to give them that.
The plan was never to have GM officers lead most (in fact all but 1) of the raids, and that very much frustrated me. My favorite of all the joint GM raids was the one Nimmyen and I shared the role, and I felt we worked great as a team.
The way I see it, we learnt a lot, won a lot, and had a lot of fun. We haven't made any new enemies, and in fact we have a group of people who we share a common bond with. We gained a lot from the alliance, and frankly we didn't lose anything. _________________ http://www.spamhelp.org/harvesterkiller/
Perhaps we ask GM to put it back to a vote with changes, i.e. change the exchange rate to something else, or solicit other ideas from their members?
IMO thats just an excuse ... they really think that dont need AH to win those events and therefore dont need to share any loot ... of course like elric said thats wrong ... _________________
During our alliance with GM, and with AH's earlier alliance with CoT, I heard frustrations from both sides that one organization was getting more out of it than the other.
Well, quite honestly, I think the only way to make something like this work is to have a DKP set up specifically for that night only.
1. You earn points on Friday night raids.
2. Only those Friday night raid points can be used to buy loot on Friday night.
3. Everyone uses the same point structure reward.
4. Everyone starts from zero. The first joint raid will be the first points earned (can do /random on first night, since nobody has points yet, but after that it goes to bid).
The problems I see, viewing this objectively, you have seperate groups who can earn points on nights outside of the joint raids, doing whatever they want to do, earning points however they decide, and then spending them on Friday night.
You eliminate things like somebody with 3+ years of DKP built up getting whatever they want (the new Tier rules were not used on joint raids).
Or having people doing Anguish, Circle of Drakes, and Crystallos flagging Golems as a raid on other nights of the week, earning DKP, then buying Lethar loot with those points.
As I noted above, the GM/AH raid was about 50/50 in terms of people starting out. Unfortunately it looks like people from both sides had issues with how loot was being done.
Well, quite honestly, I think the only way to make something like this work is to have a DKP set up specifically for that night only.
That is absolutely true.
We had to come up with a system that was as fair as possible, whilst also being quick to practice, easy to understand, and practical to manage. At the time we already had a different set of loot rules per night, and were trying to reduce complexity. Obviously a separate dkp system for 1 night a week would have been hell to organize, manage during raids, and for members to understand and track. But the idea did come up on both the brainstorming meetings with CoT and GM.
With CoT we went with a system I didn't really like all that much. The idea was that we would divide loot 50:50 between forces via a 1-off /rand, and each organization would handle their loot in their normal way. Sounds good on paper. However it's a selfish system as there's quite a bit of luck involved, and several ways to cheat. Just from bad luck one organization could win the best loots in the night, with half the raid not even elligible to roll. Or, worse, one organization could watch an item rot that the other organization badly wants. If you're leading a raid and it's your turn to win the first loot, you will want to hit the target with the best loot. Then there was uneasiness with a 50:50 split when one organization had higher attendance than the other, and so on.
With GM we learned a lot from the mistakes with CoT, and tried to tackle as many as we could with a revised system. Mostly we wanted to eliminate any feelings that loot was unfair (we failed here), and to keep things much more united than with CoT. The idea of a dkp conversion was nice and simple, and allowed everyone to bid on loots equally. The downfall was that the system works best when the dkp distribution in both organizations is similar. We came up with the 5:1 conversion by comparing how GM and AH earn loot, and the costs of various items (LBs etc). It seemed to be going well too, as we saw our high dkp folks spending twice as much dkp as they normally would, burning away their stores in record time. With a little tweaking we could have balanced this system to keep most people happy imo.
Also, each of the three organizations has an idea of it's members, of who is due upgrades and who badly wants item X. Each of us have surrendered loot to another member, and likewise we've won loot after someone else backed down to let us win (often if you didn't even realize it). With each of the joint systems we didn't know eachother as well as that, so i suspect we often had loot won by someone and members of the other organization thinking "wow he won that item? Soandso has been wanting that for months, but this guy isn't even the best class for it".
Finally, the CoT joint raids were mostly about progression, so we would all be able to raid TSS. The GM raids were to fill the raid and kill for the best loot possible. _________________ http://www.spamhelp.org/harvesterkiller/
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