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Joined: Mar 28, 2004 Posts: 151 Location: Pennsylvania
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:32 am Post subject:
I agree that certain classes should have priority on certain items. It's just common sense to me, but unfortunately not everyone feels that way. Second, to keep the same person from winning loot every raid, why don't we put a limit on it? Instead of one loot per night. Make it one loot per every 4 sundays. Doesn't have to be 4, I just through out a number. But this would definetly keep from the same person getting lucky every week.
I also feel that dkp shouldn't be used. If dkp is being used then it should be official. I do realize that we have more than enough dkp to cover it. But the new people, and guests that we invite wouldn't have dkp. Now is that fair to them? To be honest, I'm not sure why we even use dkp in the current system since it's tier based now, and can't raise bids. But that's a whole different conversation.
Now two things to be considered. If we're adding different loot rules = adding tracking of some sort = extra stress/work. Is that stress on top of the stress of leading the raids worth it? As opposed to just having one unofficial raid a night completely random loot. Let the ball fall where it wants. Second, if we are going to give priority to certain classes the loot that is available should be listed and voted on as to which classes get priority. There's only a handful of raids we're doing, so there isn't that much loot to vote on. This way, if it's predetermined, we don't have to worry about people arguing about it come raid time. i.e. too bad, we already voted on it.
To sum my thoughts up. I do feel that certain classes should have priority. i.e. a bow drops. Only rangers roll. If all rangers pass, open it up to entire raid. Second, I honestly feel that that you should be able to get only one Sunday night loot every 4 sundays. That would keep the same person from winning loot week after week.
Now slightly off the subject, as far as boxing goes. I feel the main toon should roll to keep from confusion. But if that main wins, he can loot with which ever toon he wants. Of course I would announce which toon I'm rolling for. i.e. a dps weapon drops. I'd announce I'm rolling for Katinia, so people don't question why a pally was rolling for a dps weapon not usable by him. One roll per human being, not character. And still the one loot limit. This is coming from a person that sometimes plays three characters on raids. My goal is to gear up Atuin, not my boxes. I play my boxes if needed just to help the raid, not to help myself. Yes, if I play all three it would be nice for them to have a chance to loot, but once again, my priority is Atuin, not my boxes. Atuin is there for the normal AH raids, not my boxes. Plus, how often is it that an item drops that I want for all three of my toons?? Very, very rare.
I also feel that dkp shouldn't be used. If dkp is being used then it should be official. I do realize that we have more than enough dkp to cover it. But the new people, and guests that we invite wouldn't have dkp. Now is that fair to them? To be honest, I'm not sure why we even use dkp in the current system since it's tier based now, and can't raise bids. But that's whole different conversation.
Looks like this not going to happen
Atuin wrote:
Now two things to be considered. If we're adding different loot rules = adding tracking of some sort = extra stress/work. Is that stress on top of the stress of leading the raids worth it? As opposed to just having one unofficial raid a night completely random loot. Let the ball fall where it wants. Second, if we are going to give priority to certain classes the loot that is available should be listed and voted on as to which classes get priority. There's only a handful of raids we're doing, so there isn't that much loot to vote on. This way, if it's predetermined, we don't have to worry about people arguing about it come raid time. i.e. too bad, we already voted on it.
i can keep track, i did something like that before the new dkp system was coded in site.
Atuin wrote:
To sum my thoughts up. I do feel that certain classes should have priority. i.e. a bow drops. Only rangers roll. If all rangers pass, open it up to entire raid.
Looks like a general agreement on this.
Atuin wrote:
Second, I honestly feel that that you should be able to get only one Sunday night loot every 4 sundays. That would keep the same person from winning loot week after week.
Noted, looks good too.
Atuin wrote:
Now slightly off the subject, as far as boxing goes. I feel the main toon should roll to keep from confusion. But if that main wins, he can loot with which ever toon he wants. Of course I would announce which toon I'm rolling for. i.e. a dps weapon drops. I'd announce I'm rolling for Katinia, so people don't question why a pally was rolling for a dps weapon not usable by him. One roll per human being, not character. And still the one loot limit. This is coming from a person that sometimes plays three characters on raids. My goal is to gear up Atuin, not my boxes. I play my boxes if needed just to help the raid, not to help myself. Yes, if I play all three it would be nice for them to have a chance to loot, but once again, my priority is Atuin, not my boxes. Atuin is there for the normal AH raids, not my boxes. Plus, how often is it that an item drops that I want for all three of my toons?? Very, very rare.
Think is working that way atm, only one roll/win per human. _________________
I was agreeing with you elric. I don't want to see a rogue bs weapon go to a bst, a pure dps weapon go to a tank, or a healing focus item go to a pure dmg caster like a wizard. Which is why I was saying if you want to put restrictions like this on the optional raids. They should also be placed onto the official raids. Because those are the more important ones after all considering we do those 4 days out of a week compared to one day for the optional ones.
The hard part is just gonna be deciding who gets the most synergy out of what, if you guys decide to pursue it.
Not my fault SOE nerfs the hell out of H2H and 1HB weapon drops...I got a substantial increase in dmg output and it alleviated the controlling of pet procs when I bid on the piercer from Queen Mal. /rude
... Not saying it was wrong you won it .... thats how the system works. You had the highest tiers and won an item you can use
However!! Queen Mal dagger == 5th or so on the best rog mainhand...(number burned into memory from rwekk! lolol) and basically the only dagger drop event we do atm.(we rarely do steamfactory runs anymore for MB dagger drops .... and havent tried MMM event yet (which is a lower ratio then queen dagger))
So now all the rogs are basically hoarding tiers on a rare drop (4-5 weeks now?) from this one event so that we dont get beat by warr/bst/bard/rng .....then the one rog that won..(switched toons??)
Henyways its all good the rog's are still getting in the top 10.....with group weaps....
Sry to go offtopic.....but usually we've been doing hard raids on sundays .... and weaps dont drop on hard raids (could be wrong...) so the loot rules seems kinda redundant unless we're doing normal raids with the 36ish people that show up
Not my fault SOE nerfs the hell out of H2H and 1HB weapon drops...I got a substantial increase in dmg output and it alleviated the controlling of pet procs when I bid on the piercer from Queen Mal. /rude
Sorry I didn't know that was you, I was just listing what I had heard as well as seen because I wasn't there when you won that. It happened a week before I started raiding again :p
I don't know what 1hb/H2H have been nerfed as I normally try to use only 1hs since that normally doesn't overlap with other classes...
Also as for the DKP unless I missed it in the following posts. A very easy way to prevent hoarding and the fear that the long time players don't conspire and win everything is to just place a cap on what can be spent on the items. Say like 10 DKP. I'll use rangers for an example that bow drops from Rallos returns. One bids 5 because they don't raid much with us and doesn't wanna spend to much. I bid 10 because I have a little more to spare but say wwein wants it too, well he can only bid 10 since thats the cap. Then me and him would have to roll for it, the same way we do for tier ties in the official raids.
That will also encourage more participation in the official raids instead of just seeing some people only one day outta the week because stuff can be /randomed.
Personally I think using DKP on Sunday nights is a bad idea. I see this being misused. Who is not to say that the people with high DKP just don't make an agreement with each to only use so much of their DKP( ie...they all decided to not spend more than 8dkp on that one item.). This happened when AH was doing the PoP expansion, except in reverse. For instance, the rangers would agree not to random for said weapon until the DKP was lowered. I see this happening. You would practically have the same people winning every time each week. There is a reason quite a few people cannot make most of the raids. The Sunday raids give these people a chance to gain a piece of quality gear. If DKP does start being used during Sunday night raids, then they need to become official.
DKP = /ran =
The problem with the random is I've already seen it abused. I can't be the only one that noticed the past two weeks some people show up on Sunday that haven't been there much if at all for the official raids during that time frame.
7 weeks of saving points for the dagger before I gave up. Having taken a couple nights off and falling father down the list in points its very possible it could be another 4 to 6 weeks before I would have seen one. During this time period, i wasn't able to roll on cleave 8 sleeves, sod tier 1 non visibles etc because i knew it would only add 1 -2 months longer waiting time based on the way loot is handled via AH.
Essentially I would have to climb to the top of the tier list again, to beat all warriors, beasts, rogues, rangers, bards and who ever felt their alt should have one in order to get one.
Too many octo raids that don't even upgrade group gear. More time trying harder raids. Fail fail Fail - win an upgrade vs. easy easy easy rot.
Yes, there are plenty of people out there who upgrade w/ say wirlem drops, but really, better gear rots on a daily basis in general chat.
Dagger list compliments of safehouse -
Mainhand Piercers
Following is a list of known mainhand piercers, sorted in order of best to worst ratio. TSS and newer piercers will have the BS Damage in brackets following each piercer.
Group dagger is probably somewhere between 10 and 13 in that list. Better ratio, but very poors +30 BS damage vs. the 34 on the current raid daggers we can get. _________________
The shivs went to random because (at least me) thought we would be getting queen daggers. And new how important saving the points would be.
Being the top rogue w/ points at that time I passed on the shiv thinking I would get the next Queen Mala dagger. Only one has dropped since, it and it didnt go to a rogue.
I think me and shoker could use the shivs, not sure about Kal.
But really, instead of going backwards I'd rather try to get showdown at the crystal core going, and then having 2 daggers or even at least attempt the MMM dagger event w/ possible 3 dagger drops then.
But having one dagger event and sharing it w/ multiple classes is making it near impossible for our measly 4 rogues to get weapons. _________________
rules have always been 1 loot per person not per box (unless it drops to bonus / rot i would let a person loot on second char if it is at rot but not before) just my 2 cents _________________ And you can't fight the tears that ain't coming
Or the moment of truth in your lies
When everything feels like the movies
Yeah you bleed just to know you're alive
Joined: Mar 13, 2009 Posts: 11 Location: las vegas ,nv
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject:
MY THOUGHTS FOR SUNDAY RAID, IF IT ISNA'T CLASS ALL RACE ALL, IN WHAT ORDER WOULD WIZ,MAGE,NEC,ENC COME INTO ROLL FOR GEAR?
WIZ ARE STRONG ALREADY WITH THEIR NUKES, BUT MAGES NEED RK 111 TO MAKE THEIR NUKES STRONGER.
SONILE
Joined: Sep 18, 2007 Posts: 2631 Location: Augusta, WI
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject:
Lots of great ideas folks. Thanks for letting us all know how you feel.
To be the most fair, and it being non official raid nights, I'm still thinking certain gear for certain classes, first, based on common sense. We really can't bring in dkp even, or it's no longer official. (I would like a way to burn off excess dkp though).
Essences and runes being fully random.
I like the idea of 1 gear win per 4 nights (heh, I haven't won a hard night item yet ), thanks for offering to keep track of that Hasseo.
As Franklaw stated, some are limited to how many normal raids they can attend, so they come to Sunday raids in lieu of normal raids. They need a viable way to win loot as well.
I'd like to see some more comments/ideas on this please. The last thing I want to do is alienate anyone, rather find a system that all feel is fair, and rewards folks fairly.
Can we rotate some of the days we do the hardmode raids? Like 1 week is Sunday and the next is Mon, then the following Week Tues, then cycle back to Sunday the 4th week and so on? _________________
1. Certain classes will have preference over some items (elaborate list). If those classes dont roll item become available to all.
2. Essences and runes are available to all.
3. Players only can win one item every 4 (opinions?) nights (this prevent one player being "too" lucky)
4. Players are going to have a higher chance to win with every night attended without a win:
1 night + 20%
2 night + 40%
3 night + 60%
4 night + 80%
(opinions?)
if he/she still sucking with +80%... well ...
5. To make more easy the +%, numbers will be fixed. On hard raids there are only 2 items (1 item + 1 essence). So im thinking about 100 for items and 1000 for essences.
Keeping track of this can be something like:
Is the 5th night and Odnz won an item on his first night
Player | tot nights | wins | nights left to roll | weight | essence | item
Elric | 4 | 0 | 0 | 80 | 800 1000 | 80 100
Odnz | 3 | 1 | 1 | 0 | - | -
Kreavan | 3 | 0 | 0 | 60 | 600 1000 | 60 100
Sonile | 1 | 0 | 0 | 20 | 200 1000 | 20 100
Rolling on essence for example (1000):
Elric /ran 800 1000 = 805
Odnz not allowed yet, 1 left
Kreavan /ran 600 1000 = 700
Sonile /ran 200 1000 = 900
On that example Sonile wins essence, we cant help elric more ....
So the player must come to site or ask anyone to check how to roll.
Runes are excluded at all from these system.
Like i said this is a sketch sumarizing some ideas.
Thoughts? _________________
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: Open Raids – Awarding
Issues with using DKP: since open raids are open to everyone, then all of the "visitors" would also end up, intentionally or not, kept away from a chance at loot, since they don't have DKP to spend with us. While alts could theoretically take from their main's DKP, complete visitors have no such pool. I agree that the eventual lack would drive visitors/potential members away.
I personally like the idea proposed of limiting wins to one item, one essence, and one rune per month. There are 4 Sundays in a month, sometimes 5, and limiting it this way makes it possible for others to have a chance.
The only drawback to that, is that we then have to keep track of who's won what, including our visitors, and keep that list handy each casual raid.
Speaking of which, are you going to continue to hold them earlier in the night, as you did the other week? (Please say yes.)
Lastly, extended enhancement items should totally go to shamen (jk.. mostly) _________________ ~Sresa
Wit has truth in it; wisecracking is simply calisthenics with words.
[Dorothy Parker]
Looks good Hass., though keeping track of all that seems like a PITA to me.
Good bless you Foolish Mortal for volunteering
I agree about the DKP being kept out of it, too many issues with that. I also agree that AH needs a way to bleed off excess DKP laying around from the old system.
My one concern with 1win/4weeks is that folks that have won an item might not show up for another 4 weeks, knowing they have zero chance to win. OR are you saying 1win/4weeks attended? That might be better.
Cycling nights raided: is fine w/me. Sunday is neither particularly good or bad for me. If others are interested in cycling raid nights, as Kreavan suggested, then I say go for it.
Looks good Hass., though keeping track of all that seems like a PITA to me.
Yup it's looking good I like it too.
Ybolla wrote:
I agree about the DKP being kept out of it, too many issues with that. I also agree that AH needs a way to bleed off excess DKP laying around from the old system.
Perhaps if we add another optional night or time of raiding into the week later we could do that by thinking of our Raids using three different rule sets. It is just an idea since we are currently working on a second rule set which in the below example I labeled Rule set 3.
PURPOSE:
Rule set 1 reflects our raids as they are today nothing changes.
Rule set 2 provides a way to incentivise frequent/long time raiders by allowing them to win by spending DKP. It also keeps DKP levels in check so that DKP works better in conjunction with Tier on normal raids. One would now have to manage their DKP to have the amount available to purchase an item after winning with the Tier advantage.
Rule set 3 Provides a means of coordinating bonus and open raids where outsiders are given a chance to participate with AH and win loot if they meet the attendance rules of 1 win per 4 raid attendances.
ROUGH DETAIL:
Rule Set 1 RAID: {AH Members Only}: (Normal Raids, Progression)
a) Tier advantage wins loot, DKP purchases Item
b) Tier and DKP earned on Raids
Rule Set 2 RAID: {AH Members Only}: (Return to the Past Raids Like AG, FC, etc.)
a) Class advantage allowed on specific use items (Bows, Backstabbers, Heal Focus Items)
b) DKP bids win item
c) No Tier or DKP earned for Raids
Rule Set 3 RAID: {OPEN, BONUS}: (Hard Mode Raids, etc.)
a) Class advantage allowed on specific use items (Bows, Backstabbers, Heal Focus Items)
b) 1 win per 4 raid attendances requirement
c) Randoming of Loot with weighted advantage for attendance without wins
d) No Tier or DKP earned for Raids _________________
Looks good Hass., though keeping track of all that seems like a PITA to me.
Good bless you Foolish Mortal for volunteering
Hehehe ill find a way to make life easy for me ... im a programmer :p
Ybolla wrote:
My one concern with 1win/4weeks is that folks that have won an item might not show up for another 4 weeks, knowing they have zero chance to win. OR are you saying 1win/4weeks attended? That might be better.
Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 1688 Location: San Jose California
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:38 am Post subject:
I guess I need to repost this for the general public if that is how things are being done...
Quote:
I have heard of some family type guilds using something they call a loot council. Rather than put it solely on the shoulders of the raid leader, they have a group of leaders in a loot channel. Those needing/wanting a drop would link what it is they wish to upgrade/replace for all to see in the loot channel and the members of the council would then confer and decide who would best benefit from said upgrade.
Granted this method is not going to be as fast as what we have now but then again, I don't think very many ideas could beat the speed with which we handle loot these days anyways. It does however, allow for even distribution of loot to those who would benefit the most and in turn benefit our raids that much more. As long as this loot council is only used for unofficial raids, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it. It is after all an extra raid with the sole purpose of strengthening our raid force.
Again, this is just a suggestion on how to address things, questions and comments welcome/requested! _________________
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