[Kelv]

[Atuin]

Off the subject kinda because this in regards to our regular loot system....In order to burn dkp, I think we should go back to be able to raise bids up to 10 dkp....

[Suegar]

I stayed out of this topic for a long while because I think everybody knows where I stand. I always advocated loots going to the best class available and I have always chosen loots in game by that same standard. Some of my comments to and about people who chose bad loots were shall we say less than politically correct

But, we can see a cascade effect having already happened here. If the dagger hadnt been looted by a bst over a rogue the rogue wouldnt have later given up and taken a sword away from rangers. Thus instead of two substandard dps upgrades we would have seen optimal dps from both. Same goes with warriors taking dps swords, wizards taking heal foci and so on.

Having said that I do think we need a better system especially for the sunday raids, and it could possibly bleed over into AH proper policies if it works out. The Class restriction has always seemed to me the best way, daggers to rogues bows to rangers etc. Myself I would either go a loot council or everybody puts their names in and the raid leader rolls for them from the same numbers as amount of people. as in 5 people put in, the raid leader rolls 1 5 and that person gets it. just my quick thoughts as we are raiding atm.

[elric]

Elg, I value your opinion a LOT. Thank you for chiming in.

As these are bonus raids to better AH, I'd lean towards limited class per item (bows to ranjas, etc).

Weighted rolls imo won't work. With my luck, a caster will still win a high AC shield that's 100 hp over the SoD group T5, but a huge 50 rAC bonus to me. Same with ranja bows, rogue pokers, etc. The system needs to help folks core needs in AH.

Having the bonus raids vary from Sun to Tues nights is fine with me, and I try and do them an hour earlier than normal, but we dare not start till we have the numbers. No point in dying needlessly.

Loot council sounds interesting, instead of pure /ran. Do you folks trust your CL/SL/Officers in AH enough to be fair?

Biggest thing is we have to have the numbers to win these fights. That said, I don't want to see another drop go to a toon that won't help AH. Guests are fine, but I don't think they should be eligible for drops, as it doesn't help AH.

Though, we could create a "friends of AH" category, and after 4 bonus raids, they can roll as a member, if we're still short on numbers.

Again folks, I'm trying to think how we can make these raids a viable addition to the normal schedule, where folks show up, enjoy them, and think they are fair. Where essences/runes remain /rand, but the other items go to the class/toon that would benefit AH the most.

Oh, and I should clarify. I hate the Queen raid, so Aergon would lead. I don't know Rallos Returns, so Vahl would lead. etc.

Folks, hard raids aren't viable targets during normal raid nights, as they're just 36. We can't leave that many folks out. We're trying to find a way to do these on an off night that helps AH, and gives members upgrades to help with normal raids.

[Suegar]

Tonight I actually saw the exact same problem brought to light in a normal AH raid. The top two rolls on the Krond 2hander were a ranger (wtf) and a paladin upgrading the 2her from clankwrench. People need to stop thinking what best benefits them and start thinking what most benefits the raid as a whole. Yes its bonus loot, but just because its bonus doesnt mean with a little restraint we cant get it to the more desperately in need people.

[Rwekk]

Well, the problem is this has been going on since i Joined AH and it seems its not really being brought to attention until now.


When the rogues who could have used the MB dagger didnt spend their tier because they new they needed more tiers then any other melee in AH to win Queen Mala dagger it went to a warrior? (i think, certainly not a rogue)

I had an idea, hoped at least, that by not spending my 20+ tiers at the time the 2 daggers that dropped would be rolled on by the 2 rogues lol. Instead like 25 people rolled on it.


Now you can view it as, hey cheap ass rogue why not buy it. But i've already said, w/ the flawed system thats requiring our current top rogue to have 75+ tiers to be able to win the next it just didnt make since at the time.


The more I think about it, you can't really fault the raiders. You need to put this blame on the Raid Leaders/Squad leaders. Step up and make some changes, the system is not working w/ AH as the best interest.

I tried to play by the system. I passed on lots of offhanders waiting for a dagger. I gave up.

The problem has been that for a while now, most of the upgrades have been minimal. So the better MMM and sod stuff to most folks is like, Wow, i gotta take this, i been 2 months w/ no loot. So they dont pass up on stuff not so great for their class.


And Elg. here is another way to look at it. I was raiding almost 3 months including my app period. How much loot did you earn for your warrior in that time? (including RoV). Up until the 1hs, i had only got a rotting clicky on a mask.

I started to skip raids, out of it being pointless and frustrating.


Just an outside thought, would it help if a cap was put on tiers? Once you hit X tiers you couldn't gain more you would have to roll w/ others at that fixed number.

Use my example - instead of having 52 tiers (and lots of skipped nights as I had just said or it would have been higher) If I was capped at say 25 or 30 tiers, maybe I would have bid on the arms, knowing that to get to the top slot for chance at next dagger I would only have to hit 30 tiers.

Then I could have bid on the arms much earlier etc. I dunno, just a thought. Something should change. The people w/ best attendence are getting punished.

People are getting MMM cores for 15 tiers, sod no visibles for <25 tiers. Yet there sits Odnz waiting for a dagger w/ 75 or 80 tiers now?
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[Divinax]

If anyone is thinking about Loot Councils, or SLs or Class Leads DECIDING who gets loot, Good-bye AH. Why? It's simple. AH is NOT a guild. It is by definition not designed to compete with any guild. That is why the raid times are set "Afterhours" to not compete with guild raid times. And, the DKP and loot system is designed to be fair and objective because the implicit assumption is that members primary source of upgrades is with their respective guild raids.

Having said that, it's not a matter of trust I might have, or not have, with any of the leadership. It goes against all that AH has stood for since the early days of its founding back on Sol Ro before the server merger.

Recently, like the past 12-18 months, alot of the membership comes from small raiding guilds, or family guilds where AH is their primary source of raid gear upgrades. There are only a handful of members from high-end raiding guilds, and their attendance is greatly appreciated. But, you will also see that they have high tiers and dkp because there is no reason for them to roll for loots.

How can you seriously say that AH HAS to consider the greater good when there are a) casual attendees that because of their infrequent attendance get infrequent loots and therefore have higher "needs;" b) members with high attendance, little need, and high tier/dkp that wait to cherry-pick a special drop; c) steady attendees that spend their tier/dkp to get marginal upgrades; and d) steady attendees who research their needs and bid for loots that give them the "biggest bang for the buck?" In other words, there are as many reasons why someone will bid on an item as there are attendees at any given raid!

Bottom-line, each member earns their tier/dkp and it is their right as a member to spend it as they see fit. If you think a person made a bad decision, sure, bring it to their attention so they can learn from it. If someone got an item that would be more valuable to another person, well that's just tough; better luck next time. AH has one of the fairest loot distribution systems that I've experienced (raiding since 1999). Please don't screw it up because someone may be whining or feel hard done by in some fashion.

[Cantinal]

I like the idea of keeping the loot going to people who are actually coming to the raids. However the boxing thing to me just seems kind of um no. I dont care how good you are boxing it is never as good as 2 different people doing it and if both classes are so important that one could not be gotten rid of then something is wrong. That said I do like the idea of people who attend more of these raids getting more.

However, seeing as if we can complete some of these events perhaps we dont need to do some of the events we have been doing and do more of the newer events then the older ones.

Hard raids could still stay on Sunday but some of the others could be put on other regular raid nights.

On a side note. It could be done as the glowing runes were done to get enchanter haste that perhaps a great backstab weapon goes to a rogue if there is one around or that awesome dps weapon goes to a monk/bst/bard whatever and perhaps that awesome shield that would really help the tank could go to him/her. There are ways to do that without cherry picking every item. Just have a very strict guideline on what is very important to a class such as a healing focus or a bow.

Ok flame on.

[Mist]

As far as regular raid nights go, I absolutely agree with Divinax. Moving away from the loot system we have now would be a huge mistake. Of course, there are flaws in the system and it does slow down our progression a bit, but every system for distributing loot has problems, and for the way AH is set up and works, the current system is extremely fair. It is an optional raid organization, after all, and we need to reflect that. I do strongly agree with Elg that people should consider whether or not an item is truly an upgrade for them, or if another class would benefit much more from an item. We start getting into trouble if we require that, though.

On the Sunday night raids, however, we are talking about a very different animal. Elric started leading these with the sole intention of improving AH's ability to raid and to progress. If he is organizing and leading these raids (along with others who have stepped in to help with the job), then different rules can and should apply. The important part is making sure everyone knows what the purpose of these raids is up front, and that loot will be handled differently.

Personally, I like the idea of a loot council for these raids, with the caveat that once you win an item, you must attend a number (I like 3) of Sunday raids before you can win another item. This option, however, depends on widespread support for the idea. If it's not there, then distribution should be done by the RL as he/she sees fit.

[Aleax]

[Rwekk]

[Hasseo75]

Hehe im not to quote cuz the post can grow up too much, but here my answers to recent replies:

1. The current loot system born from a huge discussion and was by far the best one. You should ask to any old member and understand how was the old system before to say that the actual dont works. Of course is not perfect but is fair in my opinion.

2. We are talking about hard raids with a limit of 36 ppl, like elric said we cant schedule those raids on regular nights for an obvious reason.

3. Based on (2) elric decided to run those raids at sunday and we are now trying to set up a more fair but simple way to distribute loot from those raids. Please lets keep discussion about hard raids ... by now.

4. Elric, weighted rolls is not a separate option it comes together with class based loot and 1 win/4 nights ... so on shields you are going to be rolling against knights only (that means the same crappy rolls for all hehe).

5. Agree with Mist/Div/Aleax for sure we going to keep AH as is now, again we are talking only about hard mode raids.

We are going to summarize all the ideas and make a poll for people to vote.

Keep discussion going guys ...
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[Wwein]

Great discussion. Firstly I want to say we are NOT discussing AH's loot system here, we are discussing the unofficial sunday raid loot system. I make that distinction because they Are two separate entities. Sunday raids began years ago, and have come and gone many times. Their existence is to complete objectives to help AH, but ones we can't justify spending an official raid night on. Whomever is kind enough to give up their Sunday to lead the raid gets to make the rules. When Wendaen did it he focused on flagging, when I did it it was to focus on flagging/augs/random quests. Now Elric/Aergon are doing it to offer people the chance to get SoD Hard loot.

Well they've been extremely successful, earning very very good quality loot, and have the (un)fortunate task of figuring out just how to distribute it. When I was leading Sunday raids and we killed a regular group named, /rand was fine and any other method was unnecessary headache. But the SoD hard loot is just far too important to paint with the same brush. While some of you may want to stick with the /rand system, I hope everyone can recognize the importance in the discussion. And while some of you hope AH doesn't take an autocratic approach to Sunday loot, I hope you all appreciate that you get the right to voice your opinions and ideas before any decisions are made! AH is a very special place for and because of You.

None of the ideas I've heard yet are better than the /rand system, though a few have potential and could grow to be. Here are the three I think could be made to work:
1. Specific classes roll first on specific types of loot. We'd discuss ahead of time what classes get first roll on loots of particular fociis/mods/slots. This is better than the idea of listing each loot individually as that would require a huge amount of organization and research both outside and during raids.
2. Loot council. I've always hated this style of loot distribution, but doing it once a week on unofficial raids only could be a necessary evil. By doing it infrequently like that you aren't adopting a dictatorship but rather a charity system - those that need it the most, get it.
3. Let it become an official raid night. Previously we had 1 RL (me) leading 4 nights a week, and the idea of 5 was torture. We now have 4 or 5 RLs which is much more manageable. It would require marginally more planning, though theming Sunday raids around SoD hard would avoid lockouts, and limit complaints about full raids.
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[Kreavan]

I keep seeing a lot of the loot system dislikes based upon me winning the 2nd Bile Etched Ritual Dagger. I just want to say a few things about it...I won that item with a Tier 36. At the time, one of my main goals was to win either a Bile Etched Ritual Dagger or a Rottrued Enforcer (Whichever one dropped first). It took me about 9 weeks to save up the tier since I can only raid Thur and Fri nights.

Lookin at some of the parses, some rogues still out-DPS me by 2k or more. That dagger as kept me in the top-10, so I do not feel my decision was a bad one. Yes, there were other loot items that would have given me a nice upgrade, but a weapon was a primary goal, so I saved up for it and passed on many others.

I think if an item means so much to a person, then save up for it no matter how long it takes. That is how I see it and will continue to do so. If I get outbid, then so be it...I'll keep saving until I have enough to win one myself. I hold no ill feelings on items I have lost to. In the end, we all are moving up at a steady pace.
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[Anadriel]

I'd like to preface this with the fact that I don't know the answer, and don't have a better suggestion than what has been posted (and subsequently torn to shreds) already, or I'd have spoken up.

While the idea of a loot council is appealing, there's a reason that every oligarchy in history has failed. Many of the appropriate points have already been brought up, so I won't dwell on it.

The priority distribution of items is great. For some classes. Yes, it means that rogues get priority on daggers, rangers on bows, et al. What I would like to point out is that only some classes actually benefit from this, and the other potential classes that could use the item to good effect get passed over repeatedly in the long run.

I can't think of an essential item that would be specifically geared towards a mage, necromancer, enchanter, wizard, shaman, beastlord or monk that wouldn't be "better suited" to another class, except hand-to-hand items. Does this mean that these classes would get priority on visible armor, since they get priority on nothing else? That would certainly make more angry people than happy people.

Regardless of what the final outcome of the loot distribution rules for Sunday raids turns out to be, I agree with Wwein and Hasseo think that it would be a disaster to apply those same rules to the sactioned raids, and am glad to hear that - at least for now - that's not going to happen. What I have been doing as a result of the "what's the best and/or right way to distribute loot" quandry is saving my tier up and figuring out what my weakest link in gear is, and fixing it with the first appropriate item that drops. At this point, it's my belt.

Yes, every single item I have looted since joining AH could have gone to better use by another class, but I'd still basically be in bazaar gear and have only upgraded my pet focus and picked up rot loot from groups. The thing that I can do best to help AH with the priority loot philosophy is to stop looting raid items altogether, grind AAs until I'm capped and win some runes. I don't think that's the right answer, and I'm not trying to be crass with phrasing it like that, but I don't see what the right answer is.

Edit: clarified some things after reading more of what was already posted. Did I mention I hate forums?

[Oakblade]

Whatever we do for Sundays are fine by me, I am there for the chance at the loot, if its random or LC then I and others have a chance, no matter how minute. DKP would be less fair, even with a cap, because people with them stockpiled could try every week and never run out.


I definitely agree on once every 4 weeks be great, but would be concerned with people taking a week or 2 off after a win. 1 win then have to wait 4 raids attended would work better IMO.


As for the tiers it works great. If you want to save up 85 tiers to buy a dagger, then you are getting what you want. If you want to spend 5 tiers for a lower dagger, then get sleeves, neck and shoulder in the same amount of time, then that would be your choice also. It leaves the decision with the player.

When something goes random then oh well you had your chance at it, now you take your chances with the rest of the bunch. Again its up to the individual player whether they want to take that chance.

BL's profit from that dagger, Rogue profit from the sword. If I want to wait for the sword, then again I have to decide whether its worth it to me, I chose to get a neck so this last time the sword dropped I wasnt able to win it. That was my choice. I am not mad at the rogue for winning it, he wanted it and had more tiers than me so gratz!

I am not expecting any special treatment to get something, that would be unfair to the other people that have built up tiers and been waiting on something to spend it on themselves. If 2 bows drop next time and only rangers bid on it for class specific, then a ranger may win it that has only 5 tier built up, that just got them self a nice back item 2 nights before. That back item could have been used somewhere else to help the raid and so on. Classes like Bards or Wizzy, would get no special treatments then I would assume.

Police your own toon, whether its five 10 tier wins or one 50 tier win, the choice is yours.

[Wwein]

As I've said, I see potential in several ideas and have no interest in pushing any of them in particular at the moment. Though since there's two systems mentioned which in some form prioritize loot to certain classes, I'll flesh out that idea a little more so people can see roughly how it'd work.

Warrior - 1hander /w CS; dodge & parry items; Anger focii; AC augs & clickies
Rogue - 1hand piercers
Berserker - 2 handers; summon throwing items
Monk - martial weapons; summon throwing items
Ranger - Bows; Sharpshooting focii
Beast Lord - 1hand blunts; pet focii (doesn't apply thanks to SoD)
Bard - large instrument mods; summon throwing items
Paladin - high AC shield; dodge & parry items; Anger focii; AC augs & clickies
Shadow Knight - high AC shield; dodge & parry items; Anger focii; AC augs & clickies
Druid - heal % focii; bene duration focii; detri duration focii; bene range focii; detri range focii
Shaman - heal % focii; bene duration focii; detri duration focii; bene range focii; detri range focii
Cleric - heal % focii; bene duration focii; bene range focii
Necromancer - detri duration focii; detri range focii; pet focii (doesn't apply thanks to SoD)
Wizard - magic damage focii; cold damage focii; fire damage focii
Magician - magic damage focii; fire damage focii; pet focii (doesn't apply thanks to SoD)

This list is just off the top of my head. Please don't flame it or rewrite it as that will clog up this already busy thread - I know its not perfect it's just a rough template. My point is just that you can ration out the kinds of items so that loot is prioritized to those it would effect the most. If such a system that prioritizes loot to classes is implemented on Sundays, I'm sure there'd be a second discussion on what classes need what.
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[Porkchop]

My thoughts..


Certain items going to certain classes are fine. I would suggest that these are kept within reason though, there are only a few loots a mission.. so cant hoard em all to classes.

We know that you dont have a whole lot of time to loot the items before you are booted from the instance. So we have to find something easy to go by. I would suggest that we keep random'ing off the items. But if you win a essence, I would suggest that you dont random on another for lets say.. a month?

This will give others a opportunity to get a essence. So if you win one, and we do three hards every sunday, you just dont roll on the essences for the next 12 raids.

[Cantinal]

Generall so far i have been happy with the hard raids that i have attended even tho i have never won an item at one. I have also never won a rune with cantinal as with the random i have never been lucky. That said i know one of 2 people have already gotten 3 runes so far and truthfully for casters there is only 2 things really need and that is Focus and Rk3 spells.

That said i would would like to put forth the thought of perhaps thinking of a diff system for spells. Perhaps a 1 win per week or something of that nature tho unfortunately we do not do the new raids enough for that to really stop anyone.

I do like the idea of people not being able to get too "lucky" tho i do find that eventually people will get what they need and then other people get lucky.

[Zacatac]