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Continue to use Wednesday nights to flag AH members for T8 access
Yes, hell yes! Can we do it 2 nights a week instead of one
23%
[ 12 ]
Yeah sure, why not. I get tiers, dkp and a chance at loot so its all the same.
33%
[ 17 ]
I am impartial to the idea and dont give a rats ass
17%
[ 9 ]
I would rather not, I will help if needed but dont want to do this.
19%
[ 10 ]
Do this and you can kiss my ass goodbye, I wont be there.
5%
[ 3 ]
Total Votes : 51
Author
Message
Aleax Officer & Administrator
Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 1688 Location: San Jose California
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:00 am Post subject:
I say let the poll speak for itself. We as management are only trying to do what our members want most. So far, I see 64% positive response compared to a 22% negative and 11% on the fence. This poll will automatically shut down in one week, after that, I am inclined to go with the results. _________________
If we do 2 targets a night instead of UF group, you're looking at atleast 4+ items and 4 runes (presuming we win which we are capable of winning every raid up to Tower I believe).
"Presuming we win" is a big factor in that sentence. You are asking us to do raids we haven't done, raids we have tried but haven't beat, and Mindshear raid which we are actively trying to beat each week. You can't claim "at least 4+ items and 4 runes" a night on new content. And I really don't see how farming Rott/Queen is any better use of time on Wednesday.
The only raids, in my opinion, that need to be done are the 3 Korafax ones for keys. We are farming 2 of them each week, and attempting the 3rd one each week. That's really all you can ask for. Everything else is just "stuff to do".
Joined: Jan 23, 2008 Posts: 198 Location: St. Louis, MO.
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:36 am Post subject:
Soon enough I will get UF for Puvia and would like to see the new zones and mobs. Also if it helps one it will help us all. I am sure soon enough we will be moving into UF raiding once we get a few events down in the Tower. _________________
Sendalor does have some valid points even though his position seems unpopular. I am going to come down on the side of the loyal minority here. I am not a fan of this plan. However, since is looks as though we are going forward with this, we need to consider a few things:
This is the same pattern we go through with any zone flagging that we have attempted. This is the prime reason that kept us out of Solteris. It would have taken us months to get enough flagged through the group missions. Everyone needs to take some responsibility for getting this done on their own to minimize the time AH needs to spend on it.
Quote:
There were people in attendance on Wednesday that I have never seen in any of the raids I have attended in the last few months. Is it AH’s intent to flag anybody and everybody irrespective of their affiliation with AH? I am guessing my particular group flagged someone who heard on the grapevine that a charitable organization would carry them through the process. The toon we flagged was not ready for the content much less able to take direction for basic groupage.
This was something I mentioned in the command channel Wednesday night. You were not the only one to notice this Siouxe. I too had a toon like this in my mission group. If we are going to continue with this flagging, it needs to be restricted to those that actually raid with us. We are not here to flag folks (even if they are allies) that never attend our raids. It is bad enough we are taking the time to do this, but it is completely ridiculous to flag the whole server.
Also, we need to try and maximize the number of flags we get. In my task group we had 3 folks who were already flagged T8 or better. So, at the end of the night, we had only 2 new flags out of a possible 6 (one flag went to the above mentioned non raider toon). Groups need to first be filled as much as possible with those needing flags or we will be at this forever. Folks who are just there to help can then be used to fill slots necessary for mission success (puller, healer, tank, etc.). Left over flagged folks can then be thanked and given the night off.
Quote:
Yeah sure, why not. I get tiers, dkp and a chance at loot so its all the same.
This is not entirely true. One tier was awarded just for showing up that night. I could have been there at OTM, left and got the same tier/dkp as those who stayed the whole night to do the missions. These missions can take 2 or 3 hours and for someone who is not getting anything out of it why would they want to help? As for loot, the stuff from the chests is inferior to T8 gear so for those of us already hunting there, the loot means nothing. I would propose bonus tiers for those already flagged who are there only to help. Alternatively, tier/dkp costs for those getting flags should be considered. Tier resets would be an incentive for folks to actually get out and earn this stuff on their own. It also rewards those getting nothing else out of the night by moving them up in the loot order.
I say let the poll speak for itself. We as management are only trying to do what our members want most. So far, I see 64% positive response compared to a 22% negative and 11% on the fence. This poll will automatically shut down in one week, after that, I am inclined to go with the results.
I would be inclined to listen to the poll more, IF, some of these positive votes could put down their reasoning for continuing the UF GROUP stuff with a RAID force. Until then, I just don't see a point of wasting a RAID force. Raids are ment to be challenging, thats why they take practice and you need a force to do them. Raids on group content is like squashing ants, its boring and uninteresting and not a test of skill in any measure. Not to mention we are not polishing any raid skills needed to survive tower, except the ninja afk causing deaths routine.
Quote:
"Presuming we win" is a big factor in that sentence. You are asking us to do raids we haven't done, raids we have tried but haven't beat, and Mindshear raid which we are actively trying to beat each week. You can't claim "at least 4+ items and 4 runes" a night on new content. And I really don't see how farming Rott/Queen is any better use of time on Wednesday.
The only raids, in my opinion, that need to be done are the 3 Korafax ones for keys. We are farming 2 of them each week, and attempting the 3rd one each week. That's really all you can ask for. Everything else is just "stuff to do".
Why would we not presume we could win every event up to Tower? Yes, we will continue to fail on some attempts, but that is mostly because we don't try them and don't have a strat for them. Once we have strat, they will become farmable in time and multiple attempts just like VL. While it may not be +4 items and runes at the start, it will become that once the strat is down. I don't see how you can claim group stuff to have so many drops when you have to hope for nameds to spawn and drop loot whereas if you win a raid, your guaranteed loot.
If only the 3 Kora raids need to be done, why are we still farming RR? Because it has upgrades. Well, so do other SoD raids! I'm sure theres a couple of casters that would like the extension cloak from CC for example. Or how about the visible armor focus for casters and melee (which drop on hard BB and Queen)? Your just not gonna find a UF group items with as nice foci as SoD raid, which is a major part of advancing a raid force imo. If you really think only the 3 Kora raids need to be done, thats all that should ever be on the calendar and we should be hitting them AS SOON as the lockouts are cleared, not keeping it on a certain day.
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few things, if you are going to try Tower in few weeks you will loose FU and RoV members because they cant yet raid tower outside the guild, no idea if AH can do tower without them, including our RL for korafax events Hasseo.
another is AH never was a elite raid coalition, thats why raise the bar need to be check wisely, AH exist for give to family guilds a spot for raid, of course you need to have elemental skills, stuff for raid with us, but i am not sure if we want be soo much elitist.
Honestly, I don't see AH trying Tower in a few weeks, especially if we lose FU and RoV members due to their guild lockouts. The way I see it is AH is trying to push to Tower (atleast thats what it seems all the officers are saying), but still has lvl 80 Req's with a few hundred AA. I'm not thinking of raising the bar to impossible levels where you need 1500 AA to join. However, I do think you need to be 85 with 500+ AA to help the raid and not be a manadrain on healers, buffers, etc. I don't think that is an "elitist" requirement, maybe I'm wrong?
And as you say, AH exists to give family guilds and smaller guilds of BB a place to raid, TO RAID! UF GROUP is not a RAID! Like Siouxe has said before, most people that have trouble finding these groups for UF Prog is because they are not ready for it. Just pushing people through and getting them a flag doesn't remedy that problem. Neither does the few pieces of loot while doing the prog in my mind.
If we really want to help people gear up for Tower, we need to practice raiding, hone our skills, and get good loot while doing it. I don't see any of that coming from doing group content with a raid force. _________________ You kick Venomous Projection for 58652 points of damage.
UF have 4 months live ... so UF "raids" must stop, but thats only me and due cant really attend on Wed my opinion have less weight :p
I would like have pallorax being hitted as soon as lockout is over but thats mean anyone else need to lead ... so i have Fri/Sat for other raids to try.
Now for tower ... you will be surprised about how trivial are those events ... _________________
Raids on group content is like squashing ants, its boring and uninteresting and not a test of skill in any measure.
If only the 3 Kora raids need to be done, why are we still farming RR? Because it has upgrades. Well, so do other SoD raids!
1. RR is about as boring a raid as can be found.
2. UF has upgrades too. So either way, we get upgrades.
And the reason some are not T8 or T9 flagged is because it's hard to get groups to do them. There are no pickup groups for UF content. Everyone is grinding out Monster missions. "LFG for Classics, no timers!" is the only thing you see.
So, I know I don't put as much time into this as some of you, but don't tell me my 4000+ AAs and 36k HP is "not ready" for UF content.
And again, when Tower become possible for AH, that's when I think the UF night should stop. _________________
Joined: Sep 18, 2007 Posts: 2631 Location: Augusta, WI
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:04 am Post subject:
Folks, I see it as a simple choice. The senior folks easily get groups in UF.
Our members/apps that aren't geared/aa'd as well, never get groups in UF.
Many of us (myself included) are sick of flagging missions. That said, in order to allow our weaker members/apps to get better gear, flagging needs to be done.
Yes, we need to work on how to award the normal 2 to 4 tiers to folks that help out on flagging nights.
That said, we need to continue flagging, so folks get the gear, as atm Tower would own us, same as the current Anniversary raid would. We've GOT to gear up.
ok stupid question... but let put things in perspective.. what will happen when we get people flagged? are we planning on raiding there? and what will we raid? ah cant take down the raid bosses in uf, and alot of us will be locked out anyway. are we planning on raiding the group content of the higher teired zones to get loot?? im not saying thats a bad thing, it has been workign well on wednsedays to get people gear. i just want to know what we are trying to work towards by flagging. maybe if people can see the advantage to flagging people they would be more willing to do so if they see how it is an advantage to them or to ah as a whole. not trying to start more of a fight hopeing to work towards a resolution _________________ And you can't fight the tears that ain't coming
Or the moment of truth in your lies
When everything feels like the movies
Yeah you bleed just to know you're alive
i think the focus about flagging people for tier 8 or 9 is put everyone in AH available for do groups there out of the AH raid time.
That means than when you ask in channel: who is lfg for volska? i need 2 more... then someone will be able to zone in there.
Happen the same in rov sometimes, no all inside rov can enter to tier 9 zones yet, if you have more ppl tier9 flagged will be more easy do groups there and get better loot.
Of course i am agree with Siouxe than we need control who we want to make tier 8 or 9, and give a incentive to the ppl than help and dont need the flags (including me ).
About you Sendalor, you are right we are here for raid, but sometimes we need step back and do diferent stuff for keep raiding.
For example all guilds with more than 4 months farming tower, hate it, and they said they only want do UF raids, but it is imposible because they cant beat UF without do a lot more tower for gear up some new comers.
They understand than sometimes we need do things we dont wanna do for later do whatever you want, is simple and more in Bristlebane because like all we know is a backwater server with few sources of the new applicants for raiding guilds, including us _________________
I have only gotten 1 group in UF before for a flagging mission. I have only gotten 1 pickup group for random UF grinding since the release. It's hard for certain classes to get involved mainly because of the belief (or truth?) that all UF groups need an uber tank, chanter, puller, dedicated healer to be viable . That leaves 2 slots for people like me and it rarely comes together.
That being said, I found the UF content plows booooooooring. It's probably because I'm a necromancer and it just isn't worth casting dots when group content drops so fast to a raid force so I basically hit /assist raid; /pet attack while watching The Daily Show (ok maybe that's a slight exageration)
I missed the first flagging night, but the concept delights me because I don't see myself getting flagging groups ever. I understand the opponents of it though, would there be any benefit in starting a new night for this, like Tuesdays? Sundays? _________________
if we arent going to use the flags for raiding i would suggest moving the flagging night to sun - tuesday. we could still award dkp without taking away from raid nights. granted that probably means two nights a week doing group stuff.. one for flagging and one for group plow but /shrug. just my thoughts _________________ And you can't fight the tears that ain't coming
Or the moment of truth in your lies
When everything feels like the movies
Yeah you bleed just to know you're alive
Do it in non raid times is a great idea, anyway we need more ppl try to be RL.
I am pretty sure Elric is exhausted, Hasseo only can lead friday or late in saturdays after guild raids.
I know you Sendalor lead raid sometimes in the past, maybe is the time than AH give you the opportunity to lead, maybe is a good idea give you the WEDs and try something new like FoS, Eriak, etc. _________________
Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 1688 Location: San Jose California
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:06 am Post subject:
Okay, so after racking my brains on this, I have come to a place where I realize that while we can't make everyone happy all the time, we should still strive to do so regardless.
Obviously, there is strong demand for the T8 group missions as well as moderate resistance. I can agree, albeit reluctantly, that it is not fair to do group missions for some while others are there to raid. I can also tell you that AH will be able to progress in places like tower MUCH better/faster if we get upgrades for those in our ranks that sorely need them.
So, seeing as I started this fiasco, I am once again throwing out an idea here that might help improve the situation. This idea of mine would require minimal help, but I can't do it alone. I would need at minimum, a rock solid tank capable of tanking any of the missions as well as someone able to request a given mission.
My idea is this, At the beginning of the night (maybe even every night to speed things up) Offer to those attending the option of buying a mission flag with DKP. If enough are willing to pay, we form ONE group with those people and the required tank. Said tank should get some reward for being willing to bail on a first target in order to flag a group. If the group is well balanced and the tank strong enough, I would think most if not all of the missions are doable fast enough to rejoin raid for a second target.
Doing at most one group a night shouldn't pull too many from our ranks especially seeing as they would have to pay for the privilege of being flagged during raid time. It would allow only those that want to do group stuff the chance to do it. And it should appease the grumbling masses as raids will continue.
Further more, I suggest making this change whole heartedly. Immediately stop the group UF content plows. I would rather see classic raids on wednesday nights instead of the plows continuing. It's just a suggestion on that part but imho, a decent one. I think we should keep our main focus on raiding and find other avenues of advancing our less equip'd members such as my suggestion above to help the organization overall.
First off I would be glad to lead a raid, the only problem is Thursday is my only surefire night I can be there ontime as only night bro isn't already using the comp to raid til around when we start til later. I got a job now so hopefully in about a month I will have my own comp then can do a lot more but until then Thursday would be my only day for sure.
Now let me say something before people think I dont want people to gear up or progress. I am all for getting people loot whenever i have a rot AH for the most part is always first, guild/fs first but mostly AH. I am t8 flagged but I basically bugged people on my own time to get it done and still have yet to get a group in t8. Hell i barely have gotten any UF group tbo 1 piece of UF loot and I am easily geared well enough for it. There really arent that many pickup groups for it at all and probably wont be for a few months til there are a lot more people not just AH and the like are geared for it. You want a group you really have to make it yourself sorry thats pretty much what I have done when I have got a group for it.
Now there have been a couple suggestions, either plan a night Sun-Tue where maybe 2-3 groups could get together for some group plow which would be more than enough and not take away from a RAID night. And Aleax's i kind of like but would be hard to implement imo. The progression missions themselves are tough but not impossible. Good pulling can have most be singles so the need for cc drops off big. Good tank is almost a must for these tho but with good dps can be minimized too. Getting a raids worth of people all set up to do these with the right makeups and getting them requested not to mention DKP/Tier workings on these cant be easy. And what if 1 group gets done in half the time the rest do cause its an easier mission, then what. Maybe on a night Sun-Tue where there are 2-3 groups willing to do it could be much easier. Either way I just want this off a raid night so we gotta be able to come up with something.
Quote:
For example all guilds with more than 4 months farming tower, hate it, and they said they only want do UF raids, but it is imposible because they cant beat UF without do a lot more tower for gear up some new comers.
They understand than sometimes we need do things we dont wanna do for later do whatever you want, is simple and more in Bristlebane because like all we know is a backwater server with few sources of the new applicants for raiding guilds, including us
Yes they need to step back to step forward....but RAIDING to upgrade not group stuff. _________________ You kick Venomous Projection for 58652 points of damage.
Now there have been a couple suggestions, either plan a night Sun-Tue where maybe 2-3 groups could get together for some group plow which would be more than enough and not take away from a RAID night.
The problem with adding another night is people who already try to make 3-4 nights a week are now going to be trying to add another night. And the idea only works if someone provides leadership. I'm not about to ask Elric to run yet another night for AH, I think 4 nights is quite enough.
The whole idea started because people were getting tired of the same T7 zones every week and wanted to move up, getting the better gear, and more places to hunt.
The T8 zones are empty. People are either not flagged for them, or they are already moved passed them. The "haves" and the "have nots". So if we could actually get a large number of flagged people in there, we could have some fun. But like everything (remember Crystallos keys?, remember Korafax flagging?) it takes time and it takes help.
Not everyone is going to get a group. Like mentioned above, Tank, Cleric, Puller is half the group now days. Toss in a slower, or second healer, and you have very little room for the rest of the classes.
I've seen people spamming the General chat channel for "WTB Taskadds, paying well !" And I guess that's an option, but really, it isn't that important to me to make me spend my days trying to buy my way in. _________________
Yes they need to step back to step forward....but RAIDING to upgrade not group stuff.
Heres what gets me...... Higher end UF group gear is about Equal to the Gear we are Getting now through raids yea?
I mean yea the heroics might not be as high, nor the focus effects etc, but its still a step in the right direction.
So why not go ahead and do it, TBH IMO all it can do is help.
Joined: Sep 18, 2007 Posts: 2631 Location: Augusta, WI
Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:03 am Post subject:
Torar, you took the words out of my mouth.
Those vehemently opposed to it, won't show, so be it. Fact is, no way in hell can we get in Tower without our Fu/RoV folks. They can't do Tower with us, so that means we have to adjust our sights.
I think it's UF prog and then T8 plows to gear up folks on Wed nights.
Problem is, finding folks willing to be RL on Wed nights, and atttempting raids we don't currently do in SoD.
Please let me or another SL if you're willing to step up. We'll take care of taskadds/shuffling, etc. All you will need to do is to be fluid and lead the event you've researched. _________________
Yes, group makeup is a big factor in beating those difficult UF progression missions, but not impossible. When I completed the Fungal mission, we had a Paladin, 2 Zerkers, 1 Beastlord, 1 Wizard. There were times of 5+ pulls. It was a combination of kiting, rooting, and dying for 2 1/2 hours, but we got it done, hehe. These kinds of oddball groups can pass these missions, but don't expect to pass the No Death or Time qualifications _________________
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