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Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:30 am Post subject: Long term goals and plans.
I was just wondering if anybody is putting any thought into what we are going to do after we get to CoA. With our first attempt at Foresight scheduled just a couple of weeks away, and only one trial beyond that to beat, is anybody thinking about the next step?
Are we planning to got to Demiplane after CoA, or will we skip Demiplane and move on to Deathknell. Or will we skip them both altogether and move up to the TSS raids?
The reason I am asking is because I know that there are folks who still don't have all their signets. We have known for months that we are working towards CoA and signets are required, and using that logic, it would take us a fair amount of time for everyone to get the other steps done for Demiplane or Deathknell; either DSK access or ToB access to begin with, and even more steps once those are done.
The missions for DSK and ToB are single group missions that could/should be done on off nights when we are not raiding so that after we have spent some time in CoA, we are ready to move up to the next level.
Just thought I would ask. I beleive that we will be in CoA soon and farming it as much as possible once we get there. If we have a plan for the next step beyond CoA, we can also be productive in pursuing those goals in our off nights.
You'll see new goals soonish (I am still adjusting them). It's probably going to be after Thanksgiving though. I still have some work and research to do before we decide 100%, and now is a time to spend with family. But I do have a rought draft up on the officer boards.
As far as the signets goes, I still don't have mine done either. Mostly this is because I left AH and didn't plan to go to Anguish, but also I don't play that much on non-raid nights. I did have time to play last night and got two more signets. Anyways, we may have to devote a few raid nights to getting them done, because I know other people that have limited time and spend it to come to raid nights. Hopefully they will have some time next week to do signets.
I think Ghraa had mentioned to me that the sewers/catacombs missions now saw invis at 75. Kor says they don't. I have no idea which is correct, but when I did sewers last night I had my level 70 cleric request the mission. We had no real issues getting down to the ph in sewers after doing that (group was me, Elgluth, my boxed cleric). Used invis move to the traps then killed there. Our biggest pull was four mobs and we did okay. It was actually pretty good exp.
Anyways, I have to get ready to go to Cincinnati to do a family thing. I hope everyone has fun and I will see you in a few days.
Id just like to chime in and say...Personally I donot like the idea of using raid nights for signets. Im sorry I spent my personal time to get mine and I believe everyone should have to do the same.
It feels like a punishment to those who have gotten theirs allready. Aka get off your frikkin asses and just get it done.
Every time I have been there, the catacombs does not see invis all the way in to the signet mob. easy enough to get mission, see if he is up, and quit mission to get a new one if he isn't. It is actually a bit faster that way if you need more than one signet instead of trying to go in and kill then wait for respawns, unless you want a bit of exp while doing it.
For the sewers, I have found that if I have my ranger in group, then wait for the roamers to move away from the trap, you can trigger the trap and hit group camo immediately after and then just keep moving. Once triggered, the trap is dormant for a short time. Once you get to the murkgliders near the signet mob, they are hit and miss for see invis. You will have to con each mob from there. I have gotten lucky and been able to invis all the way in, but that was only once. Safest bet is just to crawl mode the rest of hte way to the signet mob once you hit the murks.
Joined: Nov 26, 2005 Posts: 470 Location: Planet of the Apes
Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject:
I just recently finished Sewers signet at lv 75, and things were quite a bit different than the past few times I tried that signet. In multiple instances of the C expedition ALL murkgliders saw invis, tho didn't see through invis vs. undead. Also, none of the other mobs saw invis.
Started with 5 people (chanter, cleric, 2x shm, war). Once we got to the murks, we used IVU, and charged the PH. Had some troubles with runners creating adds and was reasonably difficult.
However, once we began dps'ing the mobs to 20% then root/rotting the remainder of the way, it got much easier (didn't have a snarer or puller) and mobs would easily pull single if you sit just north of the PH spawn in the corner. We ended up losing some people as it was late, and only had war/cler/shm, though from then on we only had to tend with 2 mobs (the PH and a wandering murk) so would have been easily duoable. Note that once we were at camp we would have only ever had to deal with those 2 mobs if it weren't for runners.
Cleric went LD for a time, but we were able to continue with just me and the war so I know its duoable if you can get to the PH.
I'm actually going to have to agree with Karrmma here. AH actually gives a pretty decent incentive to get your signets done, in the form of a small amount of DKP per signet. This is generous since, (correct me if I'm wrong), most guilds don't offer any sort of reward for working on keys - you either get it done or you don't go (or have to wait your turn to loot an all-access pass ala Time).
This isn't attempting to single anyone out. I'm still missing my RCoD Sewers sig (not for lack of trying, though) and I will be content to wait until I get the last one before I go to Anguish. For folks that have limited playtimes, perhaps someone can set up some sig groups on off-nights or before raid times.
*edit* As for the original topic, I'll let those wiser than I am on such things explain the pros and cons of future zones
Joined: Jan 21, 2005 Posts: 347 Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:51 am Post subject:
Ladile wrote:
most guilds don't offer any sort of reward for working on keys - you either get it done or you don't go (or have to wait your turn to loot an all-access pass ala Time).
The issue with CoA sigs is you can't do this. You must get the signets, the pass part is the Seal:Mastery of All. I have thought about various DKP approaches to signets in LoP, but ultimately the real thing is those without just won't be able to go.
Not getting your signets is just simple lazyness, and only hurting yourself in the long run. Also Shie and my biggest pull was 5 not 4, shes my goddess for us surviving it <3 One thing I would suggest for the sewers signet if you are trying to do it with as few people as possible is clearing the room before the murks to give you more room and no worry about wanderers. The murks themselves seem to come 2 to 3 at a time, so easy kills. Also dont take the risk of trying to invis past them, easier and safer to just clear it.
Well, I am not thrilled about using raid time to do signets either.
However, it's not like PoTime where you can just loot something and be happy. If you want to go you have to possess immunization to the AE, period. Right now we are not in the position of having, hmm, an overwhelming force I guess is the term I will use. If we don't have 90% of our membership with it finished then we will be unable to raid there due to numbers. We *need* 35-40 active people who have it done to hit targets in there.
I was not really happy about having to devote raid nights to doing Tipt runs either, but we got it done and we progressed through GoD up to Uqua. Some people (myself included) had already done Tipt multiple times, but we buckled down and devoted our time for others so that we could succeed as a group. I'm sorry it seems like a punishment to you, because it is not intended that way. I'd like to believe that most who haven't gotten it done aren't lazy, but have rl and other obligations getting in the way.
Maybe those of you who don't want to spend official raid time on it should try to organize either on an off-night or before the raid to try to get them done for those who haven't finished yet? I'd be more then willing to help as I can, though my game time is very limited right now.
If not that, maybe you guys have some suggestions for other methods to encourage people to finish them? I have to admit that I personally am at a loss as to how else to motivate.
Or maybe people just aren't interested in Anguish? Seriously, if that is the case just let me know and I will start looking at alternative means of progression.
What I would like to see come out of this discussion is an idea of where we are going next so that we can begin preparing for it now. The idea of pre-quests before you can get to the expansion end game zones is not going away. For CoA, we had signets. For Demiplane, we have DSK Access and access to Vule which we can single group. But then we have to kill Vule and get an eye to actually get access to the Demiplane... and then there is the 5 curses, one of which is from Shyra. For Deathknell, you first have to get ToB access, and then you have to do even more farming within ToB to get access to Deathknell.
I would like to see some focus put into doing the DoDh tasks for DSK access and then the group mission for Vule access. We could then add Master Vule to our target list and start killing him as well. In addition to that, we could also encourage our members to work on ToB access and farm the mini named there. They drop the legs and bp that are equivalent to what Rikki and Kess drop. The advantage being that we could get more than one of each per night. We were in there farming trash mobs for the normal class specific loot and saw 3 of the mini named up. And if we did have ToB access, then we could put mobs like Gnarlibramble, Mad Mary Anne, and Anastasia onto the target list.
I would much rather spend a raid night farming ToB and the mini named than hitting old targets like Chailak and Feratha. We will likely also fail a few times in attempting some of the big named mobs, but the loot is Anguish level gear, 350-375 hp/mana stuff and we will get class specific gear (like old time Hate/Fear) off trash mobs while clearing to the mini named and big Raid mobs.
I gues my point is that in order for us to be ready to move on once we have CoA access and have started farming there, then we need to start working on it now. Otherwise we are going to be where we were after we started farming Time and floundering as to where to go next. The TSS expansion has pretty much made Time and likely GoD obsolete as a normal raid progression step, and if we are slow in getting to the next step, another future expansion will likely obsolete yet other Raid progression steps
Anyway, have to get back to work. Just food for thought.
Peoples first priority should be to complete their signets. If that is done, their priority should be to help others finish their signets. Any additional progression requires Anguish level loot, and we cannot get that unless we have a force capable of taking down the Anguish mobs.
We will most likely be going to Demiplane after Anguish, but that is a year or so away. At that point we will look more into starting on Vule and doing the 5/5 raids for Demiplane.
We have no current plans to raid ToB trash at this point. Mad Mary Anne, et al. would be beyond our current capabilities, and frankly the thought of having to yell, kick and scream to get 30-40 people to complete seven missions (10 if you don't have someone ready for samples) is not very appealing. It's hard enough to get them to farm seven signets. Once we are actually in Anguish we can reevaluate them based on how we do on the Anguish raids.
Be patient. There are new targets coming up soon. Also keep in mind that mobs like Feratha/Chailak are good for lower tiers and new members to get loot. Believe me, I understand being bored with doing old targets (I did PoP mobs forever), but strengthening our lower members is very important. People who are lower tier need loot too, and targets like these and BM can only help us by making them more likely to survive and contribute.
Rats see invis in the catacombs. There are 2 of them on the way to the signet mob. The first rat is the first mob you come to. The second is in a square room all alone with occasional roamers. This has been consistant in the past week that Inish and I have been trying to get the signet. The mobs are all set up the same every time we go in. While the rats don't see invis to UNDEAD, the other mobs next to them do. You HAVE to stop and fight at least twice before you can get to the signet mob. Watch for adds. As for future plans and goals, we should reach the goals that we currently have listed before we look further ahead. We still have alot on our plate right now. While we are close to reaching anguish, there are alot that still have to catch up. It's kinda like a reciever in football. If he looks ahead to the endzone before catching the ball, he will most likely drop the ball. A reciever has to keep his eye on the ball and catch it before he can run. Shie is right. Be patient, and there will be more to come.
Joined: Aug 09, 2005 Posts: 684 Location: California
Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:21 am Post subject:
For those of you still needing signets - if you need a tank, yell (you can check for my alt Shirolania also) and if I'm not busy I'll come help.
I would really like to see us get to Anguish as Shie has pointed out we need the loot to gear up AND it's the only way we can complete the 2.0s!
Yesterday Wend linked to me the first cloak I've seen that truly is better then my PoR cloak - it is from Anguish. In contrast my guild is raiding ToB we took down the mini that drops the pally boots - the ones I have from BM are better.
I am likely to be on next weekend so lets get grouped up and get those signets!
ToB loot is roughly equal to qvic unless you kill the big names there. Its random if the rats are even up in the catacombs, but if you get a 70 to get the instance its pretty easily soloable regardless. Mayhaps not the best xp in the world but just killing the signet ph is easily done. vules a bloody pain in the ass and nowhere near worth the risk for the reward until you absolutely need him for demiplane access.
The mini's in ToB drop the BP/Legs. You must have seen the boots from a trash mob. The loot from trash mobs is a little better (maybe 25hp) than what you could farm from DoDh mission, and also equal to or just slightly better than the TSS tier 1 with power source. The BP/Legs that drop are just about the same as what you get from Kess and Rikkukin, maybe 25 hp less. The advantage of ToB as I see it is that you can get more than one drop. While the boots from BM may be better, he has a several day spawn rate, so we may get only 1 pair per week. Kess and Rikkukin have multiple day task timers so we are again limited to one pair per week. But the Trash mobs in ToB are like the old Fear/Hate mobs and would be up again the next night for more farming, except for the mini's. But the advantage on the Mini's again is that there is one for each class. If they are up, we could again get multiple drops in one night. If the idea is to gear up those that need it, multiple drops per night/week seem to be more efficient than 1 drop per week.
In my work and in my play, I try to be efficient as possible. Many years ago, I found that spending hours LFG was a complete waste of time and very inefficient. That is why I began boxing. I log in, I form my group, and I start playing. My group has grown to 4 over the years as my requirement have increased in order for me to be successful. It seems to me that we could be more efficient in the way we do things.
Let me see if I can find something to go along with the football analogy...
While the individual player must focus on his immediate goals, i.e. catching the ball and getting into the endzone, the offensive coordinator must pay attention to the entire team and make sure that their efforts are focused and make adjustments as necessary. Without scouting the opposing team and taking advantage of their weaknesses and then calling the right plays, the receiver won't be open and he won't even have the opportunity to catch the ball in the first place.
I have every faith that Shieara is doing what she needs to do in order for us to progress. However, I think that we could reduce that 1 year mark substantially if we all focus on what needs to be done next. If we get our Signets done, and then help those who don't have them complete theirs, then we can all move on that much faster. I am currently working in helping some guildies get the signets they need, but will make myself available to others to help them aftewards. If the decision is made that we will be going to Demiplane next, then there is no reason why those who already have their signets cannot also start working on getting their DSK access. Those who have their DSK access can start working the missions required to get access to Vule. If we wait until we are in CoA and farming there to even begin this, then it very well could take a whole year to get to Demiplane. In the meantime, there will be at least 3 more expansion and we will likely have expansion xyz with tier 1 having 300hp/mana and raid gear with 500+hp/mana.
Lets start thinking about concurrent goals and projects instead of consecutive projects.
^ I agree with that line of reasoning. While it's not yet been decided where we will aim for after Anguish, once we DO decide, we really shouldn't have to have Shie to tell us to get in gear before people start working on the next flagging/keying project.
By the way, no one is saying that people should spend every waking EQ moment furiously hunting for sigs or doing the DSK access missions or whatnot. It's okay to take it easy and work on other stuff too! Just don't put this stuff off until the last minute, is all
While the individual player must focus on his immediate goals, i.e. catching the ball and getting into the endzone, the offensive coordinator must pay attention to the entire team and make sure that their efforts are focused and make adjustments as necessary. Without scouting the opposing team and taking advantage of their weaknesses and then calling the right plays, the receiver won't be open and he won't even have the opportunity to catch the ball in the first place.
I have every faith that Shieara is doing what she needs to do in order for us to progress. However, I think that we could reduce that 1 year mark substantially if we all focus on what needs to be done next. If we get our Signets done, and then help those who don't have them complete theirs, then we can all move on that much faster.
I will try not to make this personal as Elrico has provided alot of good insight, but I think the analogy is a little off... The offensive coordinator first needs to know what his team is capable of. If the reciever doesn't run the correct route or the quarterback passes to the wrong spot, what is the point in scouting the other team at all? To have a winning season, you have to win games. To win games, you have to score points (preferably touchdowns.) To score points, you need winning drives. To have winning drives, you need good plays. Good plays take good players(we are now back to our reciever.) You proved my point in your post. What needs to be done next is getting signets (along with 1 more trial.) I used the reciever because it's an individual effort to help the team, similar to the signets. Now I use your analogy to further illustrate my original point. We are not even in anguish yet, let alone farming it, and you wish to discuss demiplanes. While, I hope we can get there faster than Shie has posted, they are still a ways off. I think we all are willing to help anyone in AH obtain their personal goals as well as any goals that AH has put forth. That's what AH does. It's why we started raiding together in the first place and still raid together today. I just fail to understand why we would set further goals when we haven't reached the ones we already have. They are posted by Kor in the town crier.
"I just wanted to clarify for everyone what our intentions and goals are for AH.
1. We are going to continue to fully support epic 1.5s and 2.0s to the best of our ability.
2. We have begun the push to complete the MPG Trials and get to Anguish. This means you must get your signets done. Full participation is the only way we will get through the trials. This is a big priority for us and will potentially lead to the best rewards.
3. GoD progression is going to be a concurrent secondary goal. This is not our #1 priority but will be done as raid forces and opportunities present themselves.
4. We will continue doing Time but with less frequency. Time still holds much reward and we may eventually be able to do it in one day.
5. Loot n Scoot Mobs/Encounters are going to be our lowest priority but definitely a daily consideration. Anything that yields upgrades for our members is worth putting effort into. "
It's been discussed and posted by our offensive coodinator (Kor and the squad leaders.) Once we hit Anguish, we'll set other goals. I'm sure the demiplanes will ultimately be included. I will be the first to admit I've got a stiffy for Anguish, not gonna mention what the demiplanes do... Baby steps is the point I was trying to get across. Eventually, those big dreams become a reality, but you have to take one step at a time to get there. Feel free to discuss though... It's really difficult to make leaps and bounds to keep up with Sony's expansion time table. If we can't make CoA, then how can we expect to do higher and harder stuffs along with the expansions?
The reason we are changing our goals is because our raid attendance has dropped off dramatically. Partly in terms of numbers, but even more significantly in terms of key toons.
We have spent months killing stuff and looting stuff and upgrading our raid force, only to have a large chunk of that force no longer raiding with us regularly. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is a reality we have to deal with.
We just haven't had big enough raids to do Time; we don't have enough folks interested to do Uqua. We sometimes get a moderate turn out on an MPG trial since (1) we have won some already and (2) they don't take too long to do.
Lots of our raiders do not like to lose. And losing raids has cost us attendance. I suspect once we are able to get over these humps and beat the last MPG trials with newer members and 5 extra levels, some of those folks will be back to get on the bandwagon (when losing is much less likely). So hopefully once we do get into Anguish we will be able to muster a force strong enough to actually raid it successfully. _________________
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Once we hit Anguish, we'll set other goals. I'm sure the demiplanes will ultimately be included. I will be the first to admit I've got a stiffy for Anguish, not gonna mention what the demiplanes do... Baby steps is the point I was trying to get across. Eventually, those big dreams become a reality, but you have to take one step at a time to get there. Feel free to discuss though... It's really difficult to make leaps and bounds to keep up with Sony's expansion time table. If we can't make CoA, then how can we expect to do higher and harder stuffs along with the expansions?
