[Vudukitty]

People when it comes to advancing as an organization we rely completely on our membership of AH. Lately we have been sidetracked due to a couple of key items that I think need to be addressed. None of this is directed at any person in specific but a general view of us as a whole. Here are my deep thoughts by Jack Handey.......

Loot and gear:
I know people love CoA for the loot. The relative ease of getting items in CoA makes it a fairly good place for us a whole to get our membership better geared. But in all honesty you can get better gear doing the group missions for TBS and getting faction as well. The top end gear for Katta missions is one notch higher than what we currently get in CoA and also the effects are made for our player level(70+). To get Ally which is needed for the top end Katta gear it requires about 50 missions total if all of the missions are 50 orux. (values change regularly) Also doing CoA aug runs as a group and such will get you the augs. In reality here all you really need to do is put forth a small effort and work your character in a manner to get yourself better geared. There are other places that you can get decent gear to better equip your character, time just needs to be spent to do so.

I mention this because it seems sometimes we focus too much on the loot and not enough on advancing as a group. Sure people like to get better equipment but again you can work this on your own as well as with us.

I also realize that some of you think that those at the top of the DKP chain are hoarding the points. Not so by my view, where I can't speak for others in the top 10% of the DKP system. I rarely spend points unless the item is a direct upgrade for me. This means pretty much the entire time we have been doing CoA I haven't spent terribly many points. This is because the items are no longer upgrades for me. When an item does drop that is an upgrade for me I usually do not get it at a cheap value because I, like most people on the top end of the scale, would rather better myself that wait for ti to drop again. Alot of people at the lower tiers have gotten a lot of gear due to people already haveing the item. This is why during first time wins I may bid on an item and have more than a 20 tier difference between me and the next person bidding, and will win it. Also if it goes to a raise I will still win it because I see the value in it for my character.

Strats:
I myself have been told I don't give enough of a strat sometimes for those that are with us on raids. In reality this really is the fault of all of us that raid on a regular basis. For the record we have been doing CoA for about 6 months consistently week after week. The strats don't change. Alos we post the strats so that you will review them and understand them prior to raiding the event. It is not placed there for our health. Most of the higher end raids require people to be on top of their game. This means we need you to pay attention and listen to what is being said in /rs. If you are unclear about any point as a SL about the item and they will fill you in, don't wait until last second to find things out, be proactive.

I know alot of you have joined AH to advance further than where you are currently at in EQ. This means that we push you to get flags and get equipped on the outside. We do this for the simple fact that we need as many people to be ready for events so we can accomplish goals. I know alot of the membership raids with guilds and such, and I say good, but be aware of the timers we have for events.

Attendance:
We as a whole have always had issues with this. One night we have 25 pallys and 14 warriors, but 1 cleric, the next we have 8 clerics and 1 tank and sparce DPS. Alot of what we do going forward depends on semi decent attendance. I am not pushing people away here and saying everyone show up or leave, just that for regular successes we need more peopleto regularly show and keep the flow going. It makes things very difficult to plan when we don't know if we will have healing or tankage, or DPS for an event. the only thing that determines that is you out there.

I realize this is still summertime and people are doing things with family and friends. People have real life faimly and friends? But when you are on during raiding hours and are sitting there in the channels and don't join us it makes people wonder why. We want to have you with us, you make us a better organization.

Attitude:
All of this is bull honky if you aren't having fun and getting to see new places and events in EQ. My personal feeling is that to get into new zones is just the tip of the iceberg, we need to beat the tar out of the zone and leave it crying for it's momma. I love seeing new events and overcoming the obstacle posed by it. Yes loot is there but the shear fun of killing a new mob takes the cake.


So what am I saying?

Well to be truthful I have no idea sometimes.... Don't get to hung up on loot but try to make sure you keep up with the crowd. Do outside work to get gear besides when you are with us raiding When strats are given for events take the time to read up and understand the strat given. Attend as often as you can. In short be proactive for all of in AH. We as a group depend our success on you being proactive to help us advance.


Vudu.

PS I know I am long winded.....

[Elrico]

Hello Vudu,

While I agree with you in your overall sentiment, there are just a couple of aspects I would like to comment on.

I agree that TBS single group vendor purchased gear would provide upgrades to lots of us, but I do not agree that it is better than the loot we can get in CoA. I know this because I have in fact put a full set of Praetorian armor on my 4 boxes. If I compare the plate sleeves from CoA, I see 79 ac and 310 hp. The Praetorian plate sleeves are 67ac 270hp. I did that comparison for all the slots before deciding not to purchase them for Elrico and only for my boxes, and hold out for the CoA armor drops or bazu stones for Rico's armor.


As far as some of the other points you made, attitude, strats, and attendance, those are inherent issues that AH and any other casual/family oriented guild/association will face. As long as raiding is an option and not mandatory ( no I am NOT advocating mandatory raiding ), people will always exercise their freedom of choice for whatever reasons they may have. For myself, I typically only get two early nights a week, so I pick and choose which nights to attend, based on target if I know in advance, or on my personal schedule if no defined target be announced.

We do have a core group of committed individuals who like the casual/family atmosphere and are always present by choice. Then we have the constantly changing faces of people who come and go for exactly the same reason. Unlike hardcore raiding guilds who have mandatory raiding and can somewhat predict how many people will attend. AH cannot predict on any given night how many or of what class will be present. Along with that, the raiding guilds have a reasonable assumptiont that they don't need to explain the strats everytime because as long as the guild has made the attempt at least once, then most if not all people have already heard the strat. In the case of AH we invariably have some number of people who have not been on any given encounter and we therefore would need the strat recap given every time. Even if they were to perform due diligence and read up on the strats ahead of time, we all know that actually doing them is nowhere near the same as reading them.


Now I may be wrong, but reading between the lines of this post a bit, I sense some reluctance to continue in CoA and perhaps some people are ready to move on? I know that I myself am still hoping to get a drop from AMV and some OOW tier 2 boots. I am sure there are others who also have specific drops in mind that they would want to get before moving on.. and now we are right back at the same conversation we had when we were talking about leaving PoTime....

Those with the big DKP stacks get their drops early, which is all fine and dandy, but we need to stick it out so that the loot ulitmately filters down to the lower tiers. I beleive that some of the early phase PoTime loot was rotting in some cases just so that we could get all the way to Quarm and some get some desired items from him. If we leave too early without the loot filtering down to the lower tiers, then when we move on to the next challenge, the high tiers will once again get the drops first. Again all find and dandy, but the lower tiers will eventually get frustrated and move on. And that will again cause the situation where we have new members coming in who may not have the gear or experience we would hope and we have to gear/train them all over again.

This is a vicious cycle I have seen in our own casual/family guild when we tried to be a family/raiding guild as well as in the time I have been in AH.

In any case, I understand where you are comign from, but as long as AH remains structured the way it is, and I hope it does, these issues you raise here are just something we will have to deal with. Now with all that said, I do beleive AH has made tremendous strides in the last year and have accomplished things some of us thought we would never do. I applaud you all for helping us get there. With a little patience, understanding, and time, I am sure we will get to other new places we have not yet dreamed of.

Cheers,

Rich

[Ladile]

Well said, both of you.

For what it's worth, I think what Vudu was getting at is that even though gearing up via raids is all well and good, there are still things that people can do in a group that prove just as valuable for advancing their characters. If not TBS stuff, then stuff like Skylance 3 or Tak 3, which will give certain classes a spell/aura as a reward (not to mention being part of ToB flagging). Or maybe doing specific missions or quests for their rewards. Stuff like the bracer quest where you can hunt and get exp in Icefall and come out of it with a decent bracer for the effort.

As far as attendance/etc. on AH raids, I'm of two minds. While I essentially agree with Elrico that AH will always have these issues due to AH being what is is, I also have to agree with Vudu that the officers and the SLs can only do so much. We can give the strats, we can give advice, we can offer assistance, but it all comes down to what each individual member wishes to do or not do. That's fine, as AH is about having the freedom of choice, but the core group of people can't be expected to do all the work, either.

In regards to CoA specifically, I personally am in favor of continuing our raiding there for as long as we've got enough people interested in going. While I can sympathize with the folks who already have everything they want from there or those who simply have seen so much of CoA that they're sick of it, the need to finish gearing up the rest of the raid force outweighs those concerns, in my opinion. Frankly, I'm sick of killing Shyra, but I understand why we keep going. To be clear, I'll admit that there are still items from CoA that I'd like to pick up for myself. However, based on comments I've seen in groupsay and via /tell, the seem to be others that are still interested in CoA as well.

Regardless of these concerns, I'm proud to be a member of AH and I'm proud of how much this organization has accomplished.

[Vudukitty]

Elrico I am not being specific on one item in the Praetorian gear. Your Vambrace is 67 AC/270 HP for a tank class you are interested in HP, and AC. That being said the value of the armor is justified by using the Translucent energaian orb which will increase it by 4AC and 37 HP without inserting the purity aug into the slot 13 position which if you go for the largest purity aug of 20 purity will take you up to 6AC and 50 HP whereas this is slightly less AC at 73AC your HP is now at 320HP.

As I said before in this posting it is for the entire Armor set, not one item specifically, and I was stating the point as a fact of doing it as groupable gear versus raiding. The overall Armor set for praetorain gear will amount to the same or greater value of the key items for each class, be it mana HP, AC etc... I pointed this out because many of our members do not go forth and get gear on their own but wait soley for AH to raid and it to be awarded to them via our DKP system. We as a whole would be better off if during off nights those people that have gear in the 100 HP/mana range took the time to proactively elevate their toons. This is not a defense of what you are saying nor what I posted prior.

[Culdahl]

I think the core point here is that people need to supplement their gear where possible. The reason I, and so many others, have been able to amass the DKP I have is that I started AH with very high-end group gear, so when we progressed into lower end content I didn't have a need to roll on any of the loot. It wasn't until we broke into CoA that I actually began seeing substantial upgrades and that was well before TBS came out.

The point is that it helps both AH, and yourself, to pursue the best augs/gear you can achieve in single group content because it means more DKP for you, better overall gear (and quicker) and it allows other members to potentially fill a needed slot.

One of our problems is that we have been raiding CoA for months, yet many of our members still have equipment on par with PoP era gear even though they have the DKP to spend. Much of this is just poor gear decisions....we still have tanks that can't break 3K AC (buffed), which is well below where they could be in terms of CoA level loot.

With single group gear being on par with CoA, EVERYONE should be at a CoA level.....we cannot progress into demiplane when half our raid force is geared for plane of time.

Some of this will be rectified by raising the bar for apping to AH (especially tanks), but we still need our current members to do what they can to supplement their gear.....I've posted a list of all of the 1 group AC augs available and EVERY tank should be working on a full set of AC augs in their off time!

[Elrico]

I know I said to myself I was going to just drop this thread and agree to disagree, but since the nest has been kicked again, I have to buzz in.... again.

It's easy enough to say that everyone should be working on something and then just expect everyone to do it, but it doesnt always work that way. As a boxer, whenever I want to do something or obtain an item, I just go do it. I log my group and just keep at it till done. But not all players have that luxury. Most EQ players are at the mercy of the LFG tool. Sometimes AH members are lucky enough to find a group in the AH channel. But even when they are actually able to find a group, what are the chances that the group will be doing what it is you really wanted to do... ? Are you going to put up your LFG tool and only accept groups that are doing 25's in RSS, or farming Stonewardens from DSK? Probably not.

So what can AH officers and Squad Leaders do about this...? From what I have seen, then only real incentive that AH can offer is DKP. When we have wanted to encourage members to do something or get a flag such as KT, DSK, or ToB, then the reward is DKP. If you want people to get to 3k ac or perhaps get to ally faction with Katta, then why not create a DKP reward to encourage people to do so? Say 5dkp for 3k ac and 5dkp for Ally with Katta. Or you can even do something like .10 DKP for each Katta mission on off nights. Plenty of ways it could be done to encourage everyone to do it.

Now if you don't want to resort to rewards to encourage people to do what they should be doing anyway, then perhaps making it easier for them to do so would be an alternate approach. Why don't the officers or SL's take up the role of leading groups to go do Katta missions or go take some of our newer members to go farm those AC augs. Its one thing to point them out, but goes a lot further to actually take them there and help to get them. I would be wililng to take one night out of my week and help some of our new tanks go and get some of these augs, say a Monday or Tuesday night of evert week.

Now so far, my topics have been AC and HP and stuff and I am looking primarily at tanks. But I am sure there are also a lot of casters who are under the 11k-12k mark in Mana, or don't have all the spells they should have, or the focus effects they should have. I would have to assume that there could also be some sort of reward for certain benchmarks, say 5dkp for 12k mana, 1dkp for other certain focus effects. Maybe the officers and SL's can take off nights to do CoA aug runs to help the casters in that area or wherever the best mana/focus augs may come from.

One last clarification I would want to point out. I am going back to tanks specifics here, so bear with me. You said that some AH tanks don't hit 3k buffed. What I would change in that statement is that some of our "new" tanks don't hit 3k AC buffed. If you look at the War/SK/Pal that have been with AH for more than six months, most are at or over 3kac unbuffed. It is only the new members of AH that are coming with the required levels and AA, but who may not be up with the rest of us in terms of gear.

As I have said before, due to the very relaxed casual nature of AH, this will be an issue that we will always have to deal with. We have a core group of people who are there when they can be and help keep the organization moving along. Along with that comes new members that may come in for a while and then move off or some that will just pop in every now and then. Unless AH makes a fundamental change, this will always be the case.

Now I see that we have raised the minimum level to raid with AH to 75. But I also see your comment here about "raising the bar". Are there other requirements that we should add to prospective AH members in addition to just level and AA? Should we make it a requirement that tanks who wish to apply should have 3k AC minimum? What other requirements should we have..

must have ToB and DSK flag
must have 3k ac
must have 12k hp base
must have 12k mana
must have yadda yadda yadda focus
must have 2.0 (cuz we ain't going back to CoA.)
etc, etc, etc,

Does this sound like AH would be becoming elitist? Is it really being elitists or just being realistic? There will come a time when AH has progressed to a certain point and we should require these sorts of minimums from new apps. We just won't have the time or patience to go back and do these things for new apps that just don't have what it takes currently. Or do we take the new apps under our wings, assign them a class mentor, and actively work with them to get to where the need to be before becoming a full member...?

There are two roads we can take. Post what you think people should be doing and leave it entirely up to them to get it done, including apps. Or, post what minimum requirements we have and actively work to make sure people are getting the assistance they need to meet the requirements or to just keep current with them. In my humble opinion, the second option would require some sort of DKP reward program to encourage all of AH to help those who need help, or for the Officer and SL's to take the time to work with all members (new and old), and our apps to make sure they are up to par with the needs and requirements of AH.

So, I say to you , the Officers and SL's of AH.. The Choice Is Yours....

[Shieara]

Just as an aside, our requirements for applicants are going up, especially with respect to tanking classes since we have so many. I was waiting on some feedback from some people which I finally got, but I have to get the final draft done (maybe today).

I can't really talk about gear since I am still wearing my arms from PoTime and EP gloves. I work on what I can but with such a low playtime it takes me a long time to get stuff done. When I think about having to do 50 Katta missions, well, at one to two missions a week I might be able to get that done in a few years. So as long as you are working on advancing yourself somehow...be it levels/aa/gear that is fine. DKP rewards for gear probably are not happening because they suck to administrate. If someone else wanted to step up and do that part then we can negotiate.

One thing I can comment on though is choosing the right gear for your class and knowing how to play. For example, I just reviewed the gear on a paladin applicant and all their augments were things like +10 to attack, +4 hp regen, etc. Now don't get me wrong, these beat a blank slot, however I wonder sometimes when I see tanks geared like a rogue (aa choice was all dps also).

I can bring up a beastlord specific example too. I was watching in CoA the other day and saw two of our beastlords using Ruthless Ferocity Rk. 2. That spell is a complete waste of mana. For your comparison...

Ferocity (level 65)
5: Increase STA by 40
7: Increase ATK by 150
8: Increase All Resists by 65
600 mana

Ruthless Ferocity Rk. II (level 75)
5: Increase STA by 65
7: Increase ATK by 234
8: Increase All Resists by 69
938 mana

Lets ignore the stamina because I hope and pray all our beastlords are maxed. So they are paying 338 more mana every 6.5 minutes for 84 more attack and +4 to resists. Does that really seem worth it to you? Unless the beastlord has an extremely low attack value that mana is much better spent on a nuke, werewolf pet or growl. I guarantee the beastlord will get better DPS out of it. Though I must say the 65 fero can still be useful for resists on some fights.

Anyways, stuff like that, people dying on the way to Shyra, not listening in raidsay (asking who the MT is even after I have announced it twice), those are the things that bother me because they are something you can easily fix without much effort on your part just by paying attention. Everyone should know the basics of their class and be willing to do what they can to learn and improve. Sometimes that involves gear, sometimes visiting your class message board, sometimes just taking the courage to ask for help.

But as Fluffy says: JUST DO EET!!!

[Kunerk]

I don't have anything terribly useful to add, so I will keep this short.

I joined AH because the guild I was in did not have enough people to raid anyting... we didn't have enough people for a full group on a good night. I had worked really hard to get the best gear I could get with my guild, which happened to be some baz gear and the DoD group mission gear. If AH had impose a required HP/AC level when I had applied there had would have been no way I would have even been accepted.

I know there are a lot of people here that go and raid outside of AH, but for people like me this is the only place I get to see the "good stuff." I think raising the requirements would block people that really want to become better, but don't have anywhere else to go... I know that I have referred some really good players to come check out AH that are in the same situation that I am in. Maybe I just got lucky and applied when the standards were low enough.

Useful or not. there it is

(Edit)
I have attended over 200 AH raids and I am still not 3k AC buffed. go me

[Culdahl]

Kunerk,

I was over 3K AC buffed before we hit time, so it is definitely possible even with very limited play time. The key is reading that AC aug thread and getting a full set of AC augs.....most of the AC augs can be singled or, at most, duo'd these days (outside of the TSS 30 AC augs). A good set of AC augs can up your AC by a good 300+ AC, which helps a ton while raiding and in single group content.

However, I don't think we will ever severely restrict AC/HP requirements because those are things that are easily fixable through raiding (which is why someone would app in the first place).

The point being made here is that people aren't making wise gear decisions, nor do they seem to be putting any effort into bettering themselves outside of AH. As a group, this is slowing us down. So, we will be raising the AA/level requirements, but the gear requirements are going to be on a case by case basis.......if your gear sux, but it's the best you can get with your play time, so be it; however, if your gear sux and you play 4 hrs per night, then, perhaps, you don't have what it takes to make full member (by "you", I mean it in the general app sense, not kunerk specifically btw).

Elrico,

We won't be requiring something like X amount of AC or X amount of HPs; we are not a raiding guild and even top end raiding guilds have fairly low AC/HP requirements because it's an easily fixable stat. However, we will up the required AAs, flags and level requirements because it shows a commitment to the game in general.

As for gear: I don't believe giving people DKP to make their own toons better in their off-time is warranted.....if you don't care enough about your toon to get the gear without a reward then so be it. But, we will be more closely monitoring NEW apps for gear decisions because we want people who are willing to be the best they can be (so I stole an army slogan, sue me). This is why we now require magelos and such to app....we can see gear choices as the person goes through the app process.

Another point that needs to be made is that people should start PMing the class leads and/or SLs/officers for gear advice and spell set-ups.....we typically promote those who have a good working knowledge of their classes and if you have questions you should PM them. I would be more than glad to go over gear decisions with any tank class if they want some info.....keep in mind that I am on your level, yet I am one of the top 10 SKs on the server in terms of AC (maybe even top 5). I'm not trying to gloat either; rather, I'm just pointing out that it's not impossible to get top end gear if you make the right decisions and take the time to get a good set of augs. Believe me, AH isn't the only organization that has issues with members making bone-headed gear decisions.......

[Lymantok]

I disagree that the reason people (tanks) arent 3K ac through bad decisions gear. I think a lot is that within their guild they cant raid good loot drops. for examplein my guild we aew working our way to COA. does that help me? no. but i want to help others so i plug along helping them. Also, i joined AH not for just gear but to be part of a high raiding group to see stuff that i might not otherwise and its been great. I am nowhere near what sulsil and auldean and oakknight are in terms of gear.
I think what we should try is think of terms of each type of AHer. THe well geared peeps (vudu, culd,wend,olidan, elg types). the mid range gear and the apps. To Advance all i think we go for a schedule like this. COA one night, TOB one night, DSK one night, Advancement night (DON, Draygan, or special hard loot mobs)
THis way i think apps get stuff the big guys in AH dont want in COA. Big guys get stuff in tougher zones.
I havent been around alot because i have been runnig group things with my guild to get them geared up. I think when most drops go to 1 pt or apps, is when i think that zone no longer has any help for AH members, but if people bid 5 or more for gear then those mobs are still valid.