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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: NEW DKP SYSTEM!
After a very long and productive debate AH shall be changing our DKP system!
History
The system used to work very well. AH members would slowly build up dkp during the flagging phase, and burn it all off when raiding the zones AH had flagged for. Time and Anguish would offer literally dozens of loot per night, and dkp spent easily surpassed the dkp earned. There was already a problem with slow inflation over these cycles, but Demi was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Having horded dkp during the flagging phase, we were unable to reap the rewards within Demi due to dwindling numbers and very slow and painful encounters. This sent AH's dkp system into a state of hyperinflation. Old members had lots of dkp saved up, new members had none, and noone had anything decent to spend it on. We lost and regained a lot of members during this phase which only made the problem worse. Now we had faithful old members with ungodly amounts of dkp, and an entire generation with low dkp. The old members had the power to win any item they wanted, but very rarely saw upgrades as low-attendance meant a low quality loot. New members had weaker gear so gained plenty of slight upgrades, but by continually buying loots they kept themselves poor.
This all necessitated a reform in our dkp system. While the problem was clear, the solution was very hard to find. We needed a way to reward old members for their years of dedicated service, whilst leveling out the playingfield to make things fairer for the newer members. Simply put, how do you base loot on recent attendance while still acknowledging long-term attendance?
We tossed around ideas involving dkp taxation, resetting the dkp, voluntary dkp gifts, scaling dkp gains... the list went on. Eventually Aleax cracked it with a beautiful system that met every requirement. We spent a few weeks refining the system, and we are now finally close enough to the implemention to announce it to you all. We are very pleased with this system and worked hard to get it where is. You will not be disappointed!
The Decoupled DKP System
Your tier and dkp are no longer connected. Consider your tier as your purchase priority (where you stand in a store's checkout line) and your dkp as your purchasing resource (your money). Under the current system the more money you have, the closer you move to the front of the line. Under the new system, the longer you've waited to make a purchase, the closer to the front you go. All purchases are still made with dkp, your dkp is still determined by your total attendance, but now your priority to loot is reflected by your recent attendance only.
1. Everyone's current DKP stays the same once we switch loot systems.
2. All DKP earnt for raids stays the same once we switch loot systems.
3. Everyone's tier stays the same once we switch loot systems.
4. Tier's are no longer gained in the old way.
5. You raise 1 tier for every raid target you attend.
6. Your tier resets to 1 after you win an item.
7. A loot is announced at 5dkp, and drops to 3dkp, 1dkp, then BoNuS. Some sub-par items may be announced at 3dkp or 1dkp if they are expected to have little interest.
8. You cannot raise the value of an item.
9. To purchase a loot, you send the SL a tell with your tier.
10. The SL waits a period of time and announces 'closing in 10'.
11. The raider that has the highest tier wins the item at the announced price.
12. That raider's tier is reset to 1, and their DKP is reduced by the price they paid for the item.
13. In the event no raider attempts to purchase the item at 5/3/1 dkp, it becomes BoNuS.
14. BoNuS loot costs 1 dkp but does not effect tier.
15. Raiders are limited to 1 loot per night, not including BoNuS wins.
16. If a raider has failed to appear at 20 raids (roughly 2-5 weeks), their tier is automatically reset to 1 (though their DKP is unaffected).
These rules may change slightly before we implement it, but the final list will be announced ahead of time. It's also likely we will notice areas to tweak once we get the system running, so be prepared for that.
Apps and DKP
While changing over to the decoupling dkp system we will also be revising how apps obtain items. The changes should speed up the loot process even further, while giving apps more incentive to keep raiding.
- Old: Apps currently gain no tiers nor dkp until they become member, at which point they are awarded 5dkp. While the 5dkp can be more than the app would have earned for attending the raids, the process feels slow as their progress is hidden from them.
+ New: Under the new system apps will earn dkp throughout their app period that they can track in the same manner as members do. Critically though they will not gain tiers until they are promoted to a member.
- Old: Currently we request tells for 5dkp loot, and hold rolls for loot at 3dkp, 1dkp, apps/guests and the 1dkp BoNuS. By rolling items under 5dkp we had been negating the power of tiers and given raiders an equal roll on those loots. Now that tiers are fair, we no longer need to roll in this manner.
+ New: Instead the loot order will be 5dkp (Send a tell), 3dkp (Send a tell), 1 dkp (Send a tell), BoNuS (roll). Members may try to buy items at any of those stages so long as they have enough dkp. BoNuS loot will cost 1dkp for members and 0dkp for apps, but can still be rolled by anyone without any bias to tier. As noted above, tier will not be reset for bonus loot.
Effects Old Members:
You will now have an equal opportunity to loot with all the other members. Having saved up dkp, you will still not worry much about the cost of loot, but will have to be more selective on which upgrades you need due to the tier reset.
Middle Members:
You will find it much faster to save and purchse those really important loots you've ben wanting.
New Members:
You will gain upgrades at a much faster rate than before.
Apps:
You will see the same number of loots as before. Though you will now be paid dkp for your attendance too.
Everyone:
Handling the loots should be faster than before.
Example
Here's a lengthy example for those still confused by the system. It shows how loot will typically be handled.
There are 4 members and 2 apps on a raid.
raider_A has 100 dkp & tier 5
raider_B has 50 dkp & tier 10
raider_C has 12 dkp & tier 15
raider_D has 1 dkp & tier 5
app_A has 4 dkp & tier 1
app_B has 1 dkp & tier 1
We kill our final raid target of the night 'uber_raid_mob' and it drops:
Last Blood
Bazu Stone
White Ornate Chain Bridle (A fast horse)
Illsalin Enforcer Medal (30ac aug)
Wwein tells the raid, 'Last Blood - 5dkp, PST with tier to buy it!'
- All six raiders want the Last Blood. However, raider_D doesn't have enough dkp to buy it, and the apps aren't allowed to buy at this stage.
raider_A tells Wwein, 'tier 5'
raider_B tells Wwein, 'tier 10'
raider_C tells Wwein, 'tier 15'
Wwein tells the raid, 'Last Blood - 5dkp, PST with tier to buy it - Closing In 10'
Wwein tells the raid, 'Congratulations raider_C on Last Blood for 5dkp tier 15'
- raider_C loots the Last Blood and immediately drops down to 7dkp, tier 1.
raider_A has 100 dkp & tier 5
raider_B has 50 dkp & tier 10
raider_C has 7 dkp & tier 1
raider_D has 1 dkp & tier 5
app_A has 4 dkp & tier 1
app_B has 1 dkp & tier 1
Hasseo tells the raid, 'Bazu Stone - 5dkp, PST with tier to buy it!'
- All six raiders want the Bazu Stone. However, raider_D doesn't have enough dkp to buy it, and the apps aren't allowed to buy at this stage.
raider_A tells Hasseo, 'tier 5'
raider_B tells Hasseo, 'tier 10'
raider_C tells Hasseo, 'tier 1'
Hasseo tells the raid, 'Bazu Stone - 5dkp, PST with tier to buy it - Closing In 10'
Hasseo tells the raid, 'Congratulations raider_B on Bazu Stone for 5dkp tier 10'
- raider_B loots the Bazu Stone and immediately drops down to 45dkp, tier 1.
raider_A has 100 dkp & tier 5
raider_B has 45 dkp & tier 1
raider_C has 7 dkp & tier 1
raider_D has 1 dkp & tier 5
app_A has 4 dkp & tier 1
app_B has 1 dkp & tier 1
Aleax tells the raid, 'White Ornate Chain Bridle - 5dkp, PST with tier to buy it!'
- All the raiders except raider_A want the White Ornate Chain Bridle. However, only raider_B and raider_C have enough dkp to buy it.
raider_B tells Aleax, 'tier 1'
raider_C tells Aleax, 'tier 1'
Aleax tells the raid, 'White Ornate Chain Bridle - 5dkp, PST with tier to buy it - Closing In 10'
Aleax tells the raid, 'raider_B and raider_C both tied on White Ornate Chain Bridle for 5dkp tier 1. Both please roll /rand 9 999.'
raider_B rolls 932
raider_C rolls 435
Aleax tells the raid, 'Congratulations raider_B on White Ornate Chain Bridle for 5dkp tier 1!'
- raider_B loots the White Ornate Chain Bridle and immediately drops down to 40dkp, and stays on tier 1. This was his second loot of the night.
raider_A has 100 dkp & tier 5
raider_B has 40 dkp & tier 1
raider_C has 7 dkp & tier 1
raider_D has 1 dkp & tier 5
app_A has 4 dkp & tier 1
app_B has 1 dkp & tier 1
Endiment tells the raid, 'Illsalin Enforcer Medal - 3dkp, PST with tier to buy it!'
- Few of the raiders want the Illsalin Enforcer Medal.
<Silence>
Endiment tells the raid, 'Illsalin Enforcer Medal - 3dkp, PST with tier to buy it - closing in 10'
Endiment tells the raid, 'Illsalin Enforcer Medal - 1dkp, PST with tier to buy it!'
<Silence>
Endiment tells the raid, 'Illsalin Enforcer Medal - 1dkp, PST with tier to buy it - closing in 10'
Endiment tells the raid, 'Illsalin Enforcer Medal - at BoNuS! (1dkp members / 0dkp apps). /rand 5 555 now!'
app_A rolls 431
app_B rolls 215
raider_D rolls 122
Endiment tells the raid, 'Congratulations app_A on Illsalin Enforcer Medal for 1dkp tier 1!'
- app_A loots the Illsalin Enforcer Medal, his dkp stays at 4dkp and stays on tier 1. Making this purchase did not effect his application in any way.
raider_A has 100 dkp & tier 5
raider_B has 40 dkp & tier 1
raider_C has 7 dkp & tier 1
raider_D has 1 dkp & tier 5
app_A has 4 dkp & tier 1
app_B has 1 dkp & tier 1
- At the end of the night, all the members and apps get dkp for their attendance, and only the members have their tier raised. The apps are now a step closer to becoming a member.
raider_A has 100.4 dkp & tier 6
raider_B has 40.4 dkp & tier 2
raider_C has 7.4 dkp & tier 2
raider_D has 1.4 dkp & tier 6
app_A has 4.4 dkp & tier 1
app_B has 1.4 dkp & tier 1
Note that raider_A has the most dkp and twice attempted to buy an item but was unable to as his tier was lower than the competition. Also note that after the night's raids, he now has the highest tier. Also note that even though raider_D is tier 5 but the apps are tier 1, all three had an equal roll of the BoNuS loot.
Last edited by Wwein on Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:00 am; edited 2 times in total
Please also note that such a big change is going to take a while to program and setup on the website. In the meantime Hasseo has very kindly agreed to keep track of everyone's dkp/tiers manually until the system can be implemented. I will continue to record raids into the database as usual, which will preserve your DKP and attendance.
As manual records are prone to human error you should all keep up with your dkp and tier to be sure a mistake isn't made. While we're all going to do our part to make the transition flawless, things never do go quite as planned so bare with us if mistakes are made!
We are hoping to go live with the new system on Wednesday, the 28th of January 2009.
Joined: Apr 01, 2005 Posts: 1202 Location: West Virginia
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:49 am Post subject:
OMG that does it, not only did Bush ruin the regular ecconomy, He screwed up AHs as well, that just burns my biscuts, lol.
By the way this sounds great, if this would have been in play on last thursday that Knotched Blade of Blood letting would have been MINE, lol. _________________ 85 Ranger|85 Shaman
Plus 85 Cleric
Joined: Aug 14, 2005 Posts: 363 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject:
Acoma wrote:
By the way this sounds great, if this would have been in play on last thursday that Knotched Blade of Blood letting would have been MINE, lol.
The new rules do not affect the open raid nights where loot is /random'd for. They also do not affect the joint raids where items are freely bid on with dkp and tier is not a consideration. _________________
By the way this sounds great, if this would have been in play on last thursday that Knotched Blade of Blood letting would have been MINE, lol.
The new rules do not affect the open raid nights where loot is /random'd for. They also do not affect the joint raids where items are freely bid on with dkp and tier is not a consideration.
I'll be finding a good place/way to post the loot rules for each type of raid so its easy to find. This thread is really to explain the reasons of the dkp system change, and to describe how it will be implemented. The actual loot rules will be in a separate stickied thread for easy reference, once someone writes it!
I want to explain the logic behind the decisions Endi is talking about here too.
Open raids: These nights are all about recruiting. We expect to have a large guest force present, and /rand all loot keeps things fair, and makes the night more fun for potential apps.
Joint raid with GM: GM don't use a tier system and it would be really hard to find a balanced way to integrate the systems. The GM raids have been burning vast amounts of DKP from those that have saved up, so it actually serves a good purpose to keep the heavy spending going and help reduce the DKP spread.
SoD: These raids will be run using the tier rules.
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:12 am Post subject: Rule change
After our first night running the new system things went great. However we discovered a fault of the system and quickly repaired it. The old rule 15:
Quote:
15. Raiders CAN purchase more than 1 item a night, however after the first purchase their tier will have been reset to 1, effectively only allowing them to win items noone else wants.
has been changed to:
Quote:
15. Raiders are limited to 1 loot per night, not including BoNuS wins.
Originally we felt that sure, let raiders buy as much loot as they want in a night as it'd be a great way to burn dkp and if anyone wants the loot, that can simply match the price and win it directly (since the raider trying to win multiple loots will be tier 1). That all works fine until you consider a situation in which numerous loot of marginal upgrades drop, such as the case of group content massacre raids.
During a group content massacre raid someone (raider_A) will win an item and drop to tier 1 because of it. Now when marginal upgrades drop, few raiders will want to lose their tiers to buy the item, but that doesn't matter to raider_A since he's already at tier 1. In such a scenario raider_A will clean up and win all the marginal loot for the whole night!
Before this scenario occured to us, the arguement was pretty balanced between allowing/disallowing multiple loots. However given the problems this loophole could cause, it's smart to just eliminating it now. It is also in keeping with AH's tradition of one upgrade per night.
Hats off to you and the others who put this together for finally addressing this issue. AH may now be able to actually recruit and retain new raiders. After any length of time, it becomes obvious that there is no way to ever overcome the huge amounts of accumulated dkp and tiers. With this new system, the loot would be more evenly distributed and casual/new raiders won't have to wait for items to become "leftover" before ever getting a chance at it.
Its difficult coming up with an ideal dkp system, but it's Really hard to come up with one that you can convert an old one into without upsetting everyone. We had lots of good ideas, but a lot of them required starting over from scratch, or some sort of conversion system. This system was frankly a stroke of genius that keeps everyone happy. There will be a few tweaks we will have to do while the system is running to prevent a longterm inflation or some other unforeseen problem, but it's a thousand times better than the old system without a doubt.
Now, get your butt back to AH, where I believe your dkp is still waiting for you!
The actual loot rules will be in a separate stickied thread for easy reference, once someone writes it!
I was hoping someone would take the initiative and do this, but I guess I'll write it up today myself. _________________ http://www.spamhelp.org/harvesterkiller/
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