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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:13 am Post subject: everyone please read
ok i know i have only been back for a few days, but i have noticed that we have many people in the ah channel during raid times and often not many people in raid. if you have been missing alot of raids recently i am not mad and you ar enot in trouble but i would like to know why and if there is anything we can do to help that. i know the main reasons for this are 1. real life issues, 2. time issues (due to guild or rl), 3. target issues (due to lock outs or guild availability) 4. being bored of current targets, 5. interpersonal stuff with one or more members of afterhours.
if people could either respond to this post or send me a pm, or even a tell after raids so that we can figure out where the issues lay, then hopefully we can get people back into raiding and make afterhours a better place for everyone. this is not a place for the blame game so please do NOT respond that you are not raiding because you hate x player, instead just say interpersonal between member or members of ah. then you can either say you do not wish to discuss details or you can discuss details in PRIVATE with a member of management. i hope we can figure things out and get attendance up we will also be trying to recruit to fill in as needed.
thank you everyone for your time and help. with out you there is no afterhours _________________ And you can't fight the tears that ain't coming
Or the moment of truth in your lies
When everything feels like the movies
Yeah you bleed just to know you're alive
In my humble opinion, the biggest problem that I see is a lack of a clear decisive objective and plan to get there. While it may be communicated in SL/Officer forums, the membership (from my perspective) just doesn't see it.
For example, the poll regarding MMM vs SoD. The Poll was started on October 6th and from the beginning, the overwhelming response was to focus on MMM. However, the raid calendar never reflected that. We still only hit MMM once a week and filled in other nights with SoD raids and also flagging raids. Now the UF release is looming and it looks like Crystallos raids are going to be yet more events I will never see because it is obsolete before I am actually flagged for them.
There are several reasons why people may have wanted to focus on MMM. Perhaps they wanted to unlock the OMM raid gear. Perhaps they wanted to do raids they have never done before (before they are obsoleted by upcoming expansions). The point is that the leadership never responded with any clear cut decision or plan. We may have done the flagging raids, but we still only spent one night a week actually in MMM. As Zacatac has pointed out in another thread, we really need to spend several nights a week on new targets until the membership learns them well enough to beat them. Once a week don't cut it.
I don't know why the focus was never put into the MMM raids since that was what the membership said they wanted. Perhaps the AH leadership had other objectives in mind and maintained the status quo despite the poll response because they had other objective in mind. We don't know because we can't see that forum and no sort of announcement was communicated.... /shrug
I also recall that there use to be a post on monthly or at least seasonal goals and objective and the raid targets reflected those goals. Perhaps that thread should be resurrected...
One more point on the subject. When our guild was larger and we were raiding as a guild, we had a separate channel for officers that we used for discussion of tactics and such, much as AH has now. What I found was that this setup tends to create a separation of "us and them", members vs officers. What I see now is that while the officers/SL are discussing the tactics in their channel during raid, suggestions from members in raid channel may be ignored, leading to /tells to the Raid Leader. Perhaps if we keep the chit chat out of Raid channel and in the AfterHours channel, then we can have open dynamic discussions of tactics in Raid channel during new events. This will open up the possibility of good new ideas that the officers/SL may not have considered as well as making the members feel that their suggestions are actually being heard.
For example, the poll regarding MMM vs SoD. The Poll was started on October 6th and from the beginning, the overwhelming response was to focus on MMM.
I don't know why the focus was never put into the MMM raids since that was what the membership said they wanted. Perhaps the AH leadership had other objectives in mind and maintained the status quo despite the poll response because they had other objective in mind. We don't know because we can't see that forum and no sort of announcement was communicated.... /shrug
I also recall that there use to be a post on monthly or at least seasonal goals and objective and the raid targets reflected those goals. Perhaps that thread should be resurrected...
Actually 27 is not an overhelming response and 27 is not enough to raid MMM. We won kronda and brinda since the beggining due full raids but MMM is long and tedious and was called Demi 2.0 for one good reason so we got the attendance going down. Even with the poll response we never got a full raid force after that on MMM days so MMM open raids were also introduced to help on recruit with little luck.
Finally the choice was wipe over and over with low numbers OR get some better loot from SoD ... and you know which was the answer. _________________
I don't know why the focus was never put into the MMM raids since that was what the membership said they wanted.
We recently spent 2 nights in a row wiping in MMM to an event we have already beaten numerous times. I didn't feel that was a good start. Why attempt something new in MMM if we can't beat Krond?
AH needs more leaders. Anyone who wants to take a night, contact Elricvonclief.
Last edited by Zacatac on Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
All the people that read the forums don't actually post on them, so you have to assume that is just a sampling from the demographic, but my point is still valid. So,while only 27 actually responded, we did have more than that on the MMM raids...
I am looking back at past raid and see we had 43-53 on every single Krond/Brinda run that we did in recent history. Those same 43-53 could very well have made attempts on other targets in order to learn them instead of just having Krond/Brinda on farm mode.
And as you said, I have learned over time what the decision was, but that was never actually communicated to the general membership in any sort of public announcement. That lack of communication is the point I was making. So while we were all thinking that the poll results were to focus on MMM, the actuality was that the decision made behind the scenes was contrary to the poll results.
People will follow their leaders almost anywhere, provided they think their leaders know where they are going and how to get there. That takes the burden off of them to figure it out on their own. If the objective and means of accomplishment are not clearly communicated, then the trust in the leadership is diminished.
Now this does not mean that I think our leadership is doing a "bad" job, so don't take it personally and get defensive. I just think that a bit more open communication in regards to general objectives and planning would go a long way to inspiring members that we have a plan and we know how to achieve it.
1. People want to do MMM for progression (while some others refuse to show up for MMM raids).
2. People want to do SoD raids for progression, or at least for loot.
3. People want to get any raids done, including Solt, to be able to get OMM raid loot and do those "raids".
4. People want to go explore the new UF expansion coming out next week
We recently spent 2 nights in a row wiping in MMM to an event we have already beaten numerous times. I didn't feel that was a good start. Why attempt something new in MMM if we can't beat Krond?
AH needs more leaders. Anyone who wants to take a night, contact Elricvonclief.
As you said, we have beaten Krond numberous times. So if we know how and have done it before, then the problem was likely in the execution or the deicsion to even make the attempt.
Were the tanks present just not sufficient to handle Krond? If the tanks were an issue, then perhaps the decision to make the attempt was in error.
Were the members present on those attempts new to the event? Were the tanks on Krond not familiar with the weapon change requirements? If the issue was with new people attempting the event, then the learning curve applies again. Some wipes are to be expected.
Was the failure evaluated and adjustments made to rectify the cause of failure? Even wipes have value, provided we learn from them.
At this point, I am not proposing that we should go back and focus on MMM now. That boat has already sailed. I was just using it as an example of how the membership is not made aware of decisions that may have been made.
I do however strongly encourage our leadership to focus on events that will provide AH general membership the ability to do the OMM raids and supplement the gear that they can earn on AH raids with gear they can get from doing group MM for brews or even MM raids at other times. With UF right around the corner, we all need gear that will help us get into UF and start earning that nice group gear. While SoD raids will provide good upgrades, the events/loots are limited. OMM raid gear will provide a bountiful supply of upgrades for all (or at least most).
#############
Zacatac wrote:
We simply don't have the time for everything.
1. People want to do MMM for progression (while some others refuse to show up for MMM raids).
2. People want to do SoD raids for progression, or at least for loot.
3. People want to get any raids done, including Solt, to be able to get OMM raid loot and do those "raids".
4. People want to go explore the new UF expansion coming out next week
Something has to give.
So this is where the decision part comes in. Make a decision. Communicate that decision to the members. Explain why the decision was made. Then explain your plan to accomplish your objective. Then work actively to complete that plan.
If the objective is what people want to do, or the reasons for the decision are compelling enough to sway their opinion, then they will show up.
I believe that as long as the plan is present and clear to all, and progress on that plan is seen, then more people will jump on the bandwagon and comply with the plan. If there is no plan, and no real progress is seen anywhere, then stagnation and frustration sets in.
And then there are those who will only attend if their specific goals and objectives are being met. Nothing you can do about that as there will always be someone who does not agree.
Please don't take this personally Zac. I sense your frustration. I am just offering my opinion. I think you and others are doing just fine in holding AH together and leading raids. It is simply my opinion that more communication of planning and objective needs to be done beyond SL forums.
It is simply my opinion that more communication of planning and objective needs to be done beyond SL forums.
The "monthly objective" posts have been brought up here and in the leadership forums. Those were all done by Wwein, who hasn't been around as of late. We will have to come up with another way to produce those.
Joined: Sep 18, 2007 Posts: 2631 Location: Augusta, WI
Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:47 am Post subject:
I sense your frustration Elrico, and agree with it. Leadership needs to be more vocal.
I didn't ask for the job I have now. It jsut kind of fell into place. That said, I enjoy it, and I enjoy forcing other SL's to lead raids.
The hard thing is to find the extra time to do what Wwein did. Posts on goals, progression we've made, updating the site, etc are both beyond the time I have, and for the site, beyond my ability (I browse the web on the computer, and play EQ. That's it)
The other thing holding AH back atm is we never know who's gonna show up on any given night. We've lost a LOT of folks to RoV. Good for them, enjoy the game. That said, without capable tanks, some events we simply cannot do. Without sufficient healing or dps, some events we would be dying needlessly. We NEED folks to show up. Regularly.
I"m NOT saying AH is in a bad place, not at all. We'll progress, look at how close we came to a win in FoS 3 tonight. It just takes dedication.
Elric
BTW, if any members would like to try their hand at leading, just let me know.
i know we all feel frustrated in some point in game, and ppl want get proggress, gear, fun and know new places and raids, but, but... just remember you all guys than Raid leaders, Squad leaders and officers want the same than you, and sometimes leaders dont get fun because that become in a job, and noone wanna change his time of fun and relax for WORK! and trust me, lead, organize, research, post and try make strats sometimes is a lot of work and time consuming, then the solution is try than more ppl share the lead responsabilitys for make life more easy to the leaders.
I dont know even speak english, write it pretty bad, but i lead some raids, sometimes, if i can then i am pretty sure than whoever here can do that too, think about it guys.
first off elrico thank you for you opinion and letting us know how you feel.
this is NOT a place to attack how people feel. yes there are many reason for what we do and do not do, but if we argue with people opinion then we wont get any more from other people. im really not looking for problem solving yet. for this post i would simply like to know what the problem is. i stongly encourage more people to let us know what is going on with them, and i will do my best to monitor this thread so hopefully people wont get ganged up on
thank you _________________ And you can't fight the tears that ain't coming
Or the moment of truth in your lies
When everything feels like the movies
Yeah you bleed just to know you're alive
I have not been around as much lately because a friend and co-worker of mine returned to the game and I have been grouping with him. I have also been playing my Paladin with that group to balance it out and I typically don't join the chat channel on my Paladin. Too much button smashing and attention required doing that job to chat.
When he is not around I log Kelv and raid or farm if it's not a raid night. I am trying to talk him into joining AH so we will see how that goes when his toon is a little better developed.
Our biggest set-back is the number of players we have lost to raiding guilds especially RoV. I was going through the leaderboards on EQ Players the other day and I was surprised at the number of names I recognized from AH with the RoV tag. I saw at least one who has recently when to FU as well. Good for them if they want to raid that much and enjoy their new homes but it has removed from our ranks a lot of key dependable raiders.
We are now entering another cycle of rebuilding it appears. I think we should consider doing at least one night a week as an open raid for recruiting and public relations during times like these when we need to bolster our ranks. Get some new blood interested in joining AH to replace those we have bled off... _________________
Agree with you Kelv, we lost some ppl to Rov or FU, and we need make 1 open raid at week again all weeks, and do MGBs and stuff again all raid days at week for ppl know us.
AfterHours is the source of raiders for RoV i think, the 60% or so of applicants to RoV are from here, that minds than we are doing very well and ppl learn a lot and improve in AH.
In my guild we also have noticed seasonal drops in attendence to functions. Alot of it has to do with the time of the year,Holidays,roadtrips,etc... I for one feel that having open raids again would help regain our numbers. That is how I first became aquainted with AH. Since joining I have seen zones I never would have even stuck my nose in. The gear from MMM raids has more than tripled my starting AC and HP. I have learned so much from watching the raid and squad leaders perform their thankless tasks Yes I have led raids and know how much "FUN" they are. hehehe Hats off to all the ones who sacrifice time and effort to help us all succeed.Its hard to come up with the right mix to keep interest in new challenges and gearing up your members by farming events. I also have never done anything in Crystallos. I wish I had,there are some nice augs from there. Nonetheless I am rambling so in conclusion I feel an open raid night would help numbers plus maybe split the zones we raid up a bit. Maybe 2 MMM then 1 SoD then 1 Crystallos? I know for one I have not been able to raid as much since going to Swingshift. I only see you all on Saturdays now. Hard to fix my raiding Jones with a once a week hit. That last part is to let PT know where I have gone off to Wish it werent so.I miss the fun.
thank you kelv and wind _________________ And you can't fight the tears that ain't coming
Or the moment of truth in your lies
When everything feels like the movies
Yeah you bleed just to know you're alive
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: My 2cp
Just to interject my opinion on an already fine thread. I completely agree with Elrico 110 %. Thats where I stand, I don't have much more to offer other then ditto to what he has said. I like the idea of open raid nights for exposure/recruitment purposes. I myself lean more towards SoD targets for farm and MMM targets for progressions. I'm not against Crystallos as a goal since it opens the OMM raids to everyone.
To answer the reasons people stop raiding? I dunno, for everyone its different I guess. Recruit and fill in the gaps.
Let me just say this though, FoS3... most exciting time I've had raiding since the last time we tried Showdown at the Crystal Core... Fresh targets = Big Fun to me!
I haven't been around for over a month now. I have thought of logging in to raid a few times, but I just can't do it. Raiding turned into something that wasn't fun anymore, and that's when I stopped playing the game for a while. It was the same thing night after night. People not paying attention (wipe), people coming late etc. (slow). For me raiding should be about speed and execution. Spending the amount of time we did giving people strats and getting to, setting up for, and finally trying to bring down a target was like beating my head against a wall. I've posted about this in the past and got the responses I did and moved on. I've also seen posts from leadership telling people to be on time, but what happens when people aren't? We still waited on them to move on. Maybe I'll get the "itch" to come back and play again, maybe not. I did enjoy raiding with this group of people. I agree mostly with what others have suggested in this thread. I offer a few words of advise that you can take or leave as you wish. Give out more responsibilities to others (SLs, etc). There is no reason a raid leader should have to do everything that they are doing. They should be in charge of managing the raid members and someone else should run the actual strats. Put more roles on SLs. Also, and this was finally starting to get better before I stopped playing, dont give 20 instructions before we start on a target. Anyone new would be completely confused after about 4, and anyone that knew would ignore them all. Call out in RSAY as things are about to happen. /rant off
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Yes I have led raids and know how much "FUN" they are. hehehe Hats off to all the ones who sacrifice time and effort to help us all succeed.Its hard to come up with the right mix to keep interest in new challenges and gearing up your members by farming events. I also have never done anything in Crystallos. I wish I had,there are some nice augs from there. Nonetheless I am rambling so in conclusion I feel an open raid night would help numbers plus maybe split the zones we raid up a bit. Maybe 2 MMM then 1 SoD then 1 Crystallos? I know for one I have not been able to raid as much since going to Swingshift. I only see you all on Saturdays now. Hard to fix my raiding Jones with a once a week hit. That last part is to let PT know where I have gone off to 
Wish it werent so.I miss the fun.
